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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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I think before placing any bolts for protection and therefore changing the experience of the climb pretty much forever consideration needs to be given to what sort of experience will be lost if the protection changes. Will the climbing community be better off for it or the worse?
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WBraun
climber
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The weirdest thing about this whole affair to me is Rick is such a wicked damn bad ass face climber.
Hell he's a wicked bad ass climber as a whole period.
That 5.7 pitch would be an easy stroll in the mall for him .....
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damo62
Social climber
Brisbane
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Just don't clip the additional bolts, simple.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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survival- "When you was a 5.9 climber, I was a 5.12 climber."
When you were a 5.9 climber? I was a 5.12 climber, and I'll stand my balls next to any 5.9 climber on the planet.
Dood, if you're going to quote someone, get it right. There is a difference between those quotes, yours is wrong. It's not even hard to get it right. Don't you see that lessens the power of your whole post by blowing a quote?
My whole drift here was to support a sense of the route that RA himself was putting forward.
You want to fancy yourself as a 5.7X climber? Have at it.
I give up anyway. I've said more than my share, HA!
As if I was the pro-bolt spokesman or something...sheesh...
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Shipoopoi, Rick A, Donini, EE, Karl, and Survival seem to be on track for me and I can't see what the big problem is. This is a cast of characters you don't want to get into a pissing contest with. Or, as it appears some of you do? Carter and Werner don't count as they can piss as far as anyone I know. Oh hell, now where was that zipper?
Falling on 5.7? 240 ft leader falls? There are plenty of our mates that have entered this spectrum and I'm sure they would like to add something here, but unfortunately they are no longer with us.
How can one not think of the Classic: " The Toothless Old Tykes Of Tomorrow, Were The Tigers Of Yesterday." No lights flashing, alarm bells silent? Give it some time and enjoy the routes however you approach them and whatever state they are in as you really have little control over the process.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Werner wrote
The weirdest thing about this whole affair to me is Rick is such a wicked damn bad ass face climber.
Hell he's a wicked bad ass climber as a whole period.
That 5.7 pitch would be an easy stroll in the mall for him .....
yeah, he is totally "The Man"
But still, in the OP he wrote
I hadn't been climbing a lot and I didn't intend to do the third pitch this time, but I took a good look at it and longed to go up it. But there is a season for higher risk routes in a climbing career and that season is passed for me. Back safely home, I entertain the idea that with another week of playing the knobs in TM, I could easily manage it.
Why not add a bolt or two to make that third pitch more reasonable, so most people wouldn't have to rap off, right at the start of the most beautiful and unique section of the route? SC is not a test piece like the Bachar Yarian or Southern Belle. No top climber is going to seek it out to demonstrate his or her mastery. Snake Dike and West Country have had bolts added with the consent of the first ascent party (see Eric Beck's and Doug Robinson's comments in the recent "route ownership" thread) and ensured fun memories for many a 5.7 leader.
But, by consenting to adding bolts, I would be working against what makes the TM experience rewarding and rare. TM has an ethic of preserving the risk in climbing and I woudn't want to contribute to erosion of it. It is a testament to that ethic that no one has added a bolt to this pitch for 37 years.
But on the other hand, adding a bolt or two would allow cautious (timid?) climbers, including my present self, the opportunity to access some great climbing without undue risk.
I'm sure if he had ventured up there, he would have been fine, but begs the question whether 5.7 is a grade that really needs death pitches or if some compromise for lesser climbers while remaining spicy is in order. 5.10+ climbers might be expected to develop the skills and consistency to virtually solo some things, but I'm not so sure that's reasonable to expect from folks doing 5.9 cracks and 5.7 face
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Rick's such a such a great guy...I'm mean really.
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WBraun
climber
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This doesn't make any sense, thaDood.
Are we ultimately responsible?
I asked Kauk why he didn't place a bolt on the face moves on freestone.
He said he was just climbing and didn't feel he needed one.
Some good climbers backed off that lead and bailed.
The anchors sucked too.
Guys age ... and then become conservative because they lost their edge.
That means you're not the same person anymore.
That person died.
Thoughts ...... ?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Guys age ... and then become conservative because the lost they their edge.
That means the you're not the same person anymore.
That person died.
yowch! that hurt.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
In the mountains... somewhere...
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The truth always hurts!
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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cosmic has the super chicken
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Wisdom is the ability to see the way things are.
Werner is indeed a very wise man!
We are old Farts, basking in our past glory, but still old Farts.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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What I think most people are missing in this particular case is that if you read what Rick and his partner wrote, the reason Rick didn't place any bolts was that he was impatient to get off the climb. Heck, he didn't even have an anchor at the top of the third pitch because he didn't want to take the time to place the bolts.
Not placing bolts because you are impatient is way different than not placing bolts because it is a difficult lead as on Bachar-Yerian.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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He is the one that stated one must have certain abilities "walk the walk" if they are going to take part it this discussion.
I'd support anyone's right to take part in the discussion. I was suggesting that it would carry more weight for those with the particular attitude that death pitches should be preserved for the joy of those bold ones who will want to come along in the future and challenge themselves on such a pitch if they actually had done so themselves. Because I think sometimes folks think it but never get to it when they are actually capable. These days people have other goals when they get good,
Because I'm just not seeing it these days. Back in the day, sure, People still climbed slabs popularly and doing the bold runout slab climbs was a thing. No more. The slabs sit pretty empty and the good climbers are going for hard, or speed, or Solo.
Who are the ones doing the runout slabs then? I used to be one of them to a more modest degree. It's guys with partners, usually girlfriends, that can't quite climb as hard or strenuous. If you take a partner up a R rated slab climb below your ability, you get an uncrowded climb and still get some thrills, and they can still manage to pull the moves.
I'm not sure just how this crowd is so precious that we need to put everyone else in the backseat because of it, because there's always stuff for them to do. I'm not too passionate about my case here. I'm kinda ready to flow with whatever the community feels, but I've climbed with the moderate climbers (which I am myself mostly and particularly since I broke my arm and got old) and sympathize with the situation in TM (Tons of classic moderates that moderate climbers can't touch and big lines on safer classics)
Somehow this story comes to mind: I'm taking an old girlfriend at the time up from Lucifer's ledge to the Oasis. One 5.9 Pitch has zero pro and she's belaying from some rusty 1/4 inchers. I can't see any bolts or worn lichen and the topo has no landmark features. I climb up 60 or 80 feet, and finally see the anchors, much further left than I expected. I had to downclimb some pretty thin stuff that wasn't as clean as I would have liked and for a long ways to get back to where I could head back up to the anchor, which was one fixed bong. Don't know what would have happened if I fell. I know there's some kinda twisted glory in mank but if the community decides someday that they'd rather have a spicy but not deadly 5.9 instead of that Dinosaur, I'd be the first to applaud.
Ironically, I forgot how epic that Lucifers to Oasis was and went back and rope/Free soloed it some years later. I wound up spending the night in a T shirt on the Oasis. For those who want the whole story, check out
http://www.yosemiteclimber.com/LucifersLedgeSolo.html
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Werner writes
Guys age ... and then become conservative because they lost their edge.
That means you're not the same person anymore.
That person died.
Thoughts ...... ?
I think the whole thing swings both ways hard. It's common enough when you're young to act immortal and risk your life to show off or save a few buck on bolts, or maybe it's to "test yourself" You might also bang lots of hotties and wind up breaking hearts cause you don't care for their feelings or life as much as your own nut, and perhaps some babies are even born out of that.
The older guy has been through enough, and maybe seen some buddies hit the deck enough to have different priorities and care for more than himself and his glory. Or maybe he gets chicken or wants to run it out but the wife and kids say hold on!
In any case, did that person die? Perhaps the bold pirate dude was a concoction of the ego in the first place. Werner knows that we are eternally the Soul awareness and that the forms and manifestations of our personality are always dying and changing but that's not really us. The Old "Us" usually has as many faults and shortcomings (or more) than the less edgy "new Old" us
We make this climbing game and take it seriously and stake our image on it. How we treat and regard ourselves and our fellow climbers shows our colors. It may be noble to preserve the old boldness, or it may be selfish. It's hard to judge but it's not all about one thing like balls, because there's more to our sport than competition, even within ourselves. Our fellow climbers count too, and the welfare of the many and the minority. No easy answers.
peace
Karl
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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What is most important here is your putting the question up for consideration because by so doing:
(1)You are underscoring the FA party has the claim on if/when to add fixed protection, a point of view not always followed, as with one of my FAs, Hair-raiser Buttress, for one.
(2) You as one of the FA party are weighing the pros and cons and retaining the authority to make the decision one way or another based on all the important considerations:
- Respecting and understanding and savoring how it was first done. As Cragman says, “one of the privileges of climbing there is to know the history, and be able to pass over the same stone that the giants of our sport had done,” and as Guido says,”First ascents are works of art. Some superb, others worthless, a given in the eyes of the creator and an option for later ascents.” Indeed, and contrary to the line of thought by Stezzo: “Essentially, it's nearly impossible for climbers to experience a route as the FA experienced it.” Not true. By reading and talking and interacting with those who came before, one can enrich the experience of climbing by reflecting on how crazy or stupid or brilliant where the FA party (sometimes all at once, turns out), all very much a part of the climbing experience. Of course, one never has the SAME experience of the FA party. We are separate beings. We never have anyone else’s experience, but that’s hardly the point. The point is to appreciate to the degree possible and satisfying to you the experience and time of the FA assent, and more generally the ascents of the day. Such simply adds to the joy of climbing, I contend, and to take no effort to know the history diminishes ones experience and joy of climbing.
- The tradition in Tuolumne of minimizing bolts for noble and ignoble reasons, including the concern for how bolts mar if not deface the rock, or the attempt to boost one’s reputation as a hard climber and try to gain another notch in the competitive game of the day. But even in the latter case (there are many), the crazy and ignoble still needs to be left to the FA party to change, if they choose, and only them. So, Rectorsquid, your thought “Nobody's going to follow the climbing ethics of a lunatic,” may be generally right, except for the next lunatic. And no matter what, it is the FA lunatic who gets to decide whether to come back and make things sane or not, not because he/she “owns” the route, but because we respect their freedom and right to go up into new territory and make their way as a most prized pleasure and fulfillment in climbing, one we want for them as we do ourselves.
- The actual risk to life and limb of the third pitch should one fall for any reason. Survival puts it well, “We're talking about tradition yes, and spice too, but don't forget there's life and death involved.” Indeed, how would you feel day in and day out (and nighttime too) if a perfectly capable climber broke a knob and bought it or sustained major injury on the pitch? I can’t recall the fall potential on the last pitch, but near the end I guess it would be pretty wild going over an arête, but not death. Am I right?
- The rising volume of “safe” sport routes where moderate grades are protected and provide the experience some climbers prefer, plus the fact one can rap off easily after the second pitch of the climb and it seems as if it is accepted practice.
- The precedent setting potential of adding pro to established routes, though much discussion seems to miss a key point: you are keeping alive the important precedent of how it is up to FA party to be consulted on the matter, quite contrary to the worry expressed here you are opening the door to retro bolting without consultation.
- The potential increased traffic and delay should the alteration be made, though again, if people now simply rap and don’t do the last pitch (much like Golden Bars, where it seems people often rap and avoid the long, beautiful but unprotected 5.8 finale getting you to another short pitch to the top of the dome and views galore), then it seems the extra traffic probably would be minimal.
- All the above against the gain for climbers to climb pitch three, completing the whole route and feeling safer in the process about doing this particular route.
Note how all the pondering you get to do in consideration of the discussion here goes contrary to another line of thinking as one poster puts it: “If it were a popular pitch, then the community would have more claim to ownership.” Nope, as most discussion on the thread shows, it is the FA party who gets to decide on adding bolts, not the “community” by the level of popularity of the pitch/route.
So to me, strange to say, I care not what decision you make. The final answer to your pondering is far less important than the fact you are doing the asking and others are waiting for the answer, as opposed to someone deciding (or some “community”) they will retro bolt it. However, “to freedom condemned,” as Sartre says. Now that you have raised the question about what to do, you must go through the existential angst and eventually give us your answer!
For my two cents, I liked the whole route (second and third better than first pitch, which is OK if you stay to the left crack) just as it was. I do recall pitch anchors when I did it, and got to say I favor anchors in ALL cases! So, I wouldn’t do anything to it but add anchors if needed. But that’s just another n of 1. As I say, what’s more important is you and your teammate are deciding and we await a reasoned reply. Final point: I bet the “community” will respect your decision after all this machination, still another important point if not the most important.
Tom HIggins
LongAgo
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Karl, sweet story!!
I was talking to a guy about this story today while we were walking to a crag. He's been climbing for decades and he really summed this situation up quite well when he said... "but in the end, it's only rock climbing".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Tom, in a well considered post writes
Note how all the pondering you get to do in consideration of the discussion here goes contrary to another line of thinking as one poster puts it: “If it were a popular pitch, then the community would have more claim to ownership.” Nope, as most discussion on the thread shows, it is the FA party who gets to decide on adding bolts, not the “community” by the level of popularity of the pitch/route.
This is now the case and I'm cool with it. It will likely not be the case 75 years from now when most FA parties are fading memories and no longer accessible. That's why at one point I advocated a "First ascenders" registry where FA parties could tell the story of their route and their feelings about ethics and the area involved. That way the tradition of an area could be better preserved and articulated into the future and we'd have a better sense which routes were intended to be bold and which were just put up by folks in a hurry with no bolt money.
Peace
Karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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ok, one more post from me for dood.
that you were claiming to be a 5.12 climber in 1971 remarkable since not even the Stonemasters were 5.12 climbers then
Holy buckets man, talk about a stretch. Never, in either one of our original exchanges was 1971 mentioned, ever. How did you pull that out of your ass?
What you said was that you were soloing or running out 5.7 when you were a 5.9 climber. I wrongly assumed that was as far as you took your leading.
I never claimed to be climbing 5.12 at the same moment you were a 5.9 climber. That's why your quote was so far off base. What I meant was that I was a 5.12 climber, and quite competent at running it out if necessary, but that I don't want myself or my partner out 150 feet on 5.7 ground.
I don't need a 5.9 climber telling me what to think about a full pitch runout, or what is sissified. That's what I meant, and how wrong we can be with written communication.
Sorry for the miscommunication.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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I again say that I respect all forms of climbing and hope that there will always be accurate representations of all those forms not just for myself, but for future generations of climbers. All these forms are well represented at all levels in TM, from 5.0 to 5.14? From safe to the so called "death climb". Don't I, and others, have the right to try them all? To experience them as they were originally intended?
So that means you are gonna nail your way up Serenity, climb on a goldline without cams, and in EB shoes (or, gulp, lug boots)?
Be real. Things aren't static. And people poo-bah those who say you don't have to clip bolts, but you don't. If a bunch of bolts were added to the BY, a climber could skip them. The only real difference is that when they spray about having lead the route, nobody will know how bad-ass they were.
cheers
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