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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dingus, I appreciate your candor, and there is no offense taken. Of course, if I have to doubt my senses at that level, then, well... let's just say I shouldn't be driving (or climbing, for that matter)!
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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"I got a feeling and it wont go away, oh no,
Just one thing and then I'll be okay:
I need a miracle every day."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Madbolter1: "For more fruitful future discussion, I need to get clear on two points: 1) What do you make of a miracle story like I told? 2) Can you give a particular simple or obvious evidence that would be sufficient to indicate God's existence?"
1) I have no way of verifying your miracle nor does anyone I know. That's the problem with all such stories. Typically in all such anecdotal incidents there is a lack of a "threshold of witness" to the miracle. By "threshold of witness" I mean not enough people saw or experienced it for it to be universally accepted as "truth" or a "proof".
2) Now I agree that intepretation is a significant hurdle and hence the desire for simplicity and scale. Simplicity for easy and common understanding; scale to overcome deniability. So my example: God completely filling every Walmart parking lot in America to a depth of fifty or one hundred feet with loaves and fishes at 6pm tomorrow night would accomplish both. Loaves and fishes would leave no doubt as to who sent the message; instantly filling every Walmart parking lot in America with identical fishes and loaves would represent a highly public and logistically impossible feat that overcomes deniability.
[ Note: Now neither #1 or #2 above addresses the possibility you raised that aliens, rather than God, might be responsible for such an act. But I suspect, logically and philosophically, that anyone / anything capable of such an act - regardless of any extra-terrestrial origin - would be (nominally) indistinguishable from a theistic diety as far as the general public is concerned. ]
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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No, I didn’t read any of it… except for the fact that Joseph got post #223…
What God…?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ha, if I ever saw proof there is no god that's it...
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Blight
Social climber
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But you have faith so my disbelief is irrelevant.
No, your disbelief is irrelevant because he saw it happen for himself.
You insistence that it didn't happen and couldn't have happened, because you say so, when you weren't there and have no evidence to the contrary, is remarkably reminiscent of a small, spoilt child putting his fingers in his ears and shouting, "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!".
As I said before, there's a big difference between having your eyes shut and saying, "I can't see", and having your eyes shut and saying, "there's no such thing as light".
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Healyje, thank you for your reply, and I laughed out loud at your (excellent) Walmart idea.
I'm on the same page with you about threshold of witness. I want to discuss an implication of that in a moment. But first, let's talk about your Walmart idea.
You say, "Now neither #1 or #2 above addresses the possibility you raised that aliens, rather than God, might be responsible for such an act. But I suspect, logically and philosophically, that anyone / anything capable of such an act - regardless of any extra-terrestrial origin - would be (nominally) indistinguishable from a theistic diety as far as the general public is concerned."
You here suggest that a sufficient demonstration of power is tantamount to justification for employment of the title "God." But, it really isn't, is it?
Arther C. Clark famously said, "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." Your idea is really a paraphrase of that: "Any sufficienctly impressive demonstration of power is indistiguishable from divinity."
I agree with you that if your Walmart idea became reality, that would be a pretty impressive demonstration of something. The question would be: What?
Don't be too quickly dismissive of my "aliens" idea, because I submit that a significant percentage of the people on Earth would NOT surmise divinity from such a demonstration of power (the vast majority of the world's population is not Judeo/Christian). While you or I might say, "Nice. Loaves and fishes. Yeah, I get the point," most of the world's population would draw completely different messages. And our attempt to "educate" them about the "real" message conveyed by the demonstration would introduce the very obliqueness that your "clear" and "obvious" demonstration was supposed to avoid. The fact is that no matter how "clear" and "obvious" the message is, the more people you have to get that message TO, the higher the odds are that it will be misunderstood by more and more of them!
Now, in that context, let's turn back to the threshold of witness idea. The tension with any "message" is that if you give the same message to too many people, a lot of them aren't going to "get it." But, on the other hand, if you give the message to a small enough group of people, in an intimate setting, crafting the message to reach JUST them very effectively, then the message fails the threshold of witness test. So, if you're God, how do you approach things?
Well, on the one hand, you DO give some messages that reach everybody--knowing that many if not most aren't going to "get it" for many reasons. Examples are the Bible and creation itself. Now, I know you are howling, and THAT is my point. Many people see in the Bible and in creation messages that clearly and obviously tell them of a Creator God. Others, like yourself, interpret these messages differently, even coming to the opposite conclusion from those who see God in them.
At this juncture you might say, "But neither the Bible nor creation are undeniably non-naturalistic, while my Walmart example clearly and obviously would be!"
But, no, it wouldn't be. Most people on Earth might well say that your example event would be clear and obvious evidence that aliens visited the Earth--AND, it could be further conjectured that the loaves and fishes themselves were evidence that these very aliens must have been responsible for a host of other "miracles" that are now such an entrenched part of Christian mythology!
Surely you are not placing yourself in the camp of the "general public" who you think would likely be convinced by the demonstration. Instead, you would be one of the ones saying, "Wow! Impressive! Ok, now, what caused this? (BTW, you general public people, shut yer yappin' so we can figure this out.) Ok, so whatever did this had to have access to basically the whole country in one night...." And you would then begin to catalog the alternatives, and, trust me, aliens WOULD be on that list. YOU would not, along with the "general public," immediately think "God!" And, I believe, you would be RIGHT to reserve judgment in that very way.
You should not be immediately convinced by anecdotal evidence, no matter how "clear and obvious" it was to the small group present to observe it. AND you should not be convinced by even something as impressive as your Walmart example.
To illustrate my upcoming point, bad hermenutics uses the "proof text" method of Biblical interpretation. One or two verses are used (usually out of context) to make some doctrinal claim, despite the fact that many other places, and indeed entire themes of the Bible, make the opposite point. Such "proofs" are the basis of many of the allegations of "inconsistency" critics level at the Bible (and such methods account for much of the divergency in Christianity).
One good example is the way Luke 23:43 is read: "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." It clearly reads that the thief on the cross would be with Christ that very day in paradise. There is simply no misunderstanding what that verse "clearly and simply" says!
Because it is so "clear and simple," this verse has be widely used as "proof" of people going straight to Heaven (or Hell) when they die. The Bible is crystal clear in many places that "the dead know not anything," and that they do NOT go straight to Heaven or Hell when they die, but the doctrine of the immortal soul and immediate punishment or reward is mainstream.
All hinges on the employment of that one little comma! Because the translators placed it before instead of after the "To day," it reads totally differently from the original Greek (which, BTW, had no punctuation). Put the comma AFTER the "To day," and you have an entirely different reading of the text.
The same problem applies to ALL levels of interpretation in ALL contexts! You acknowledge that interpretation of evidence is "a significant hurdle," but you are mistaken that "simplicity and scale" are the solutions to it. EVERYBODY has access to the same Bible, which satisfies the scale requirement. AND it is quite common knowledge among those who read their Bibles that the Greek has no punctuation, which you would think would make it astoundingly simple for them to recognize that the offending comma was SUPPLIED by translators. How much more simple can the understanding of this text be??? "Duh, supplied comma... ok, we can't base anything on where the comma is... ok, then at best this verse is ambiguous."
But, it's even simpler than that! The Bible itself clearly explains that Christ didn't ascend to Heaven that day, and the thief didn't die that day either. So, with the TINIEST bit of looking at the context, it is trivial to not misunderstand that verse. Nevertheless, the misunderstanding to which I point is mainstream!
If SO many people, over so many centuries, could be SO taken in by what is an OBVIOUS misunderstanding (scale and simplicity), how much hope can you really put in either scale or simplicity? As the line from Men in Black goes, "A person is smart. 'People' are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."
If something like your Walmart example ever became reality, you would get WILDLY divergent interpretations, even among the educated and intelligent, and the demonstration would NOT convince many (if not most) that GOD had been responsible, nor should it!
No one of us (and the prospects are even more dismal in groups) enjoys an epistemically privileged position, such that we can have confidence in our interpretations of any particular "facts" or events. THIS is why there IS no "clear" and "simple" path to (or away from) faith. We are ALL just thrutching around, picking things up, examining them, trying to fit them in, discarding those that don't seem to fit anywhere, perhaps revisiting them later--and all the while we are trying to assemble for ourselves coherent world views.
We oversimplify that process only at our peril: doing do makes us closed-minded, narrow, and exactly the sort of people Tommy Lee Jones said we are. I remember a Calvin and Hobbs cartoon. I can't find it, though, but here goes. Calvin is bemoaning education: "It just introduces shades of grey. It makes things that seemed clear, fuzzy," and so on. HE is a "man of action," so he says, and such fuzziness causes one to pause, causes one to contemplate before acting, which restricts a "man of action." Thus, Calvin will resist education! Hobbes replies, "You're ignorant, but at least you act on it."
As you know, the world is chock full of people who are ignorant, but at least they act on it! The reason Arther C. Clark is correct in his statement is exactly because we ALL want to jump to conclusions, and we ALL oversimplify the issues that face us. But oversimplification is the root of all evil.
Anti-abortionists kill abortion doctors because they have oversimplified the issues. Hitler kills millions because he has oversimplified the issues. People elect idiots as presidents because they have oversimplified the issues (and because we have trained our politicians to do so as well, so that the only pool we have left to choose from consists of idiots). I could go on and on, and you yourself could come up with millions of examples. "Knowledge is power," and we believe that adage, so we oversimplify the issues enough that we can feel that we have knowledge about various subjects that matter to us!
So, yes healyje, we part company on whether or not philosophical methods are valuable in the context of such questions. I deny that there is any such thing as a "clear and simple" demonstration of anything, and I advocate careful and non-dogmatic thinking about all subjects, despite the fact that careful thinking is time-consuming and strips one of the precious sense of having "knowledge." Initially you thought that your Walmart example could act as a sufficient demonstration of divine power. I hope you think differently about that now.
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Anybody here ever read "Waiting for the Galactic Bus"?
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ec
climber
ca
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scene: hot & dusty, sort of like in the gas station scene of No Country for Old Men...in the mid-70's at a junk yard in the S. San Joaquin Valley, outside of Bakersfield, CA.
The guy at the counter is wearing on separate chains a cross, an ankh, a star of david and a crystal.
When asked about the variety of religious jewelry the guy replies, " 'Never know man, I figured that need to have it all covered."
true story...
 ec
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Craig said: "The whole bible is made up, that is a fact."
How about the Song of Songs, or the parables, the Beatitudes, and what not. There are no facts even mentioned in these passages, but there is wisdom. Is wisdom made up or universal?
Problem is that people continue to look for God at the level of their discursive mind, so if "God" does not appear according to discursive criteria (God = some entity), God is, ergo, "made up."
There's an old saw: You cannot solve a problem at the level of the problem. Put differently, you cannot "solve" the God problem at the level of the discursive mind, not without introducing God forms that are, as Craig said, "made up," unsubstantiated, illogical, and so forth.
And so we have people saying, "God doesn't make any sense to me. I can't prove Him, or it, or her." So God gets cast in the image of our needs, real or imagined, or to "explain" what science has yet to nail down, or as thoughts or imaginings, or as the product of states, or as a feeling or sensation or vision - but always as a "thing," and substance, an "it," a form. Few see this as simply the analytical mind grasping for something to squeeze and contrast.
But why stop there? That's just the first belay, and the wall rises out of sight.
JL
JL
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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People believe because they are taught it by their parents and by the people around them.
At some point, someone tells you that there is no Santa Claus. Until then, you believe it because they tell you to believe it. They also give you a reward for believing it and punishment for not believing it (naughty and nice list). It's just like most religions except instead of presents, there is heaven and hell.
It also allows people to blame someone else for their problems so they don't give it up easily.
The Egyptians believed it because they were taught by their parents to believe it and it was better to believe than to not believe. The same goes for the Mayan, Aztec, Greek, Roman, Jew, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.
Dave
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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nicely put JL
Or to state it more clearly without the JL poetry:
We are too stupid to figure out anything having to do with God. Bummer.
Dave
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ec
climber
ca
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'Never know man, I figured that need to have it all covered.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Craig said, "Why cant' you extend beyond your beliefs to see that all religions are just that, people duped with a false belief."
What are you saying that I "believe," and where did you get that idea?
What I'm actually saying is that you are arguing yourself into a circular argument at the level of the mind, and from that level, only mind, and thing or form of mind, are "real." It never occurs to "mind" that there are limitations to it's capacities.
JL
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pa
climber
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"The intuitive mind is a precious gift. The rational mind is its faithful servant.
We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
Albert Einstein
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Bible Prophecy and Probability
The record of Bible prophecy and the corresponding historical fulfillment.
PROPHECY/ PROBABILITY
1. His birth in Bethlehem from the tribe of Judah. - Michah 5:2/Matt 2:1
/1:2400
2. He would be preceded by a messenger. - Isaiah 40:3/Matt 3:1-2
/1:20
3. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt. - Zech 9:9/Luke 19:35
/1:50
4. He would be betrayed by a friend. - Psalm 41:9/Matt 26:47-48
/1:10
5. His hands and feet would be pierced. - Psalm 22:16/Luke 23:33
/1:100
6. He would be scourged by His enemies. - Isaiah 53:5/Matt 27:26
/1:10
7. His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. - Zech 11:12/Matt 26:15
/1:50
8. He will be spit upon and beaten. - Isaiah 5:6/Matt 26:27
/1:10
9. His betrayal money would be thrown into the temple. Zech11:13/Mat 27:5-7
/1:200
10. He would be silent before His accusers. - Isaiah 53:7/Mat 27:12-14
/1:100
11. He would be crucified with thieves. - Isaiah 53:12/Mat 27:38
/1:100
12. People would gamble for His garments. - Psalm 22:18/John 19:23-24
/1:100
13. His side would be pierced. - Zech 12:10/John 19:34
/1:100
14. None of His bones would be broken. - Psalm 34:20/John 19:34
/1:20
15. His body would not decay. - Psalm 16:10/Acts 2:31
/1:10000
16. His burial in a rich an's tomb. Isaiah 53:9/Mat 27:57-60
/1:100
17. The darkness covering the earth at midday. - Amos 8:9/Mat 27:45
/1:1000
Total odds against the above prophesied events occuring by chance are:
4.8E+33
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dr. F.,
So, were all of the apostles just imaginary characters? Did they not exist?
Was Saul/Paul really the persecuter of Christians that history says he was? Are the fourteen attributed Epistles of Paul fabricated?
Did this paint rendering of "The Apostle Paul" come from someone's imagination?
http://biblestudies.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_apostle_paul_a_biography
I ask about the Apostle Paul because in 1 Corinthians 15:17 Paul declares and defends, to the those of the church of Corinth, his own and those, greater than (500), that witnessed Christ's resurrection! Even after this the majority still didn't believe.
Listen to how Paul ends chapter 15:
"50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
Spending eternity in hell is not a long time, it isn't a very long time....it's forever! I'm 100% sure I'm going to heaven, are you? I can show you how!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Madbolter and Illusiondweller,
Most excellent brothers. Thank you.
There are physical evidences that GOD is, and Jesus is who he says he is. Illusiondweller, prophecy fortold and then coming to pass just as the Good Book said it would, is most powerful and faith edifiying. There is soooo much. And it continues in our day.
GOD doesn't expect us to throw our heads away.
Some will believe with little evidence, they are surely blessed. Some will believe after an overwhelming amount of evidence. I first came to faith with some evidence and personal experience. When I fell away from GOD, and finally came back for good, I had an enormous amount of evidence to rest upon. And today the evidence just keeps pilling up. For me not to believe would be impossible.
I would like to contribute to this thread and look up and post evidences that GOD tells the truth and reveals himself as we go, but for now I just want to post this children's story of Doubting Thomas . . .
http://www.kirkofkildaire.org/quest/FQlessons/DoubtingThomasGoodNews.htm
Paraphrased from the Children’s Illustrated Bible – Doubting Thomas
Jesus’ followers were excited and everyone in the room wanted to talk to Peter and his friend at once. The disciples crowded around them, firing questions and praising God, begging to hear them tell again and again exactly what Jesus looked like and each word of what he said. Had Peter seen the wounds in his hands?
All at once the hubbub died away into silence. Everyone stood perfectly still, staring open-mouthed at the newcomer in the room. No one heard anyone knock or open the door. No one had seen anyone enter. Yet there He was! It was Jesus!
“Peace be with you, “Jesus said softly, greeting His friends and disciples with a familiar hand shake and smile.
“Be careful, it’s a spirit!” came murmurs from the back of the room.
A frown creased Jesus’ brow. Why are you frightened of me? I am not a ghost. Look here, see the wounds on my hands, feet and side. It is me, Jesus.
A few of the disciples began to creep closer to Jesus – but very cautiously.
“Yes, come closer. Do not be afraid.”
As they began to touch his warm skin, they cried out – it is you, Jesus and their faces were bright with peace and delight.
There was one disciple who was not present at this special meeting and when he heard what had happened, he did not believe them. He said, “Unless I can touch the marks of the nails in His hands and the wound in His side, I can’t believe what you tell me.” It cannot be Jesus.
No matter what his friends said, no matter how hard he tried, Thomas could not get the doubt out of his mind.
Eight days later, Jesus followers were again together in a private place with the doors locked. The disciples were afraid of the Jewish council and other political figures who might know that they had seen Jesus and what might happen to them.
During the middle of their meeting/meal, just as before Jesus appeared among them – the door did not open, no one heard a knock. “Peace be with you!”
He greeted his disciples and friends and turned toward Thomas.
Thomas, shrank away from the group. Jesus went toward him.
Jesus reached out His hand and took the terrified disciple’s hands.
“Here,” Jesus said, holding Thomas’s fingers against the nail wounds in His hands. “Feel the wound in my side. Don’t doubt any longer. Have faith in me, it is true.”
As Thomas fingers touched Jesus where he was wounded, his hands, his feet and his side, Thomas broke down and cried.
“My Lord and my God!” Thomas cried.
You believe me now because you have seen me for yourself. Even more blessed are those who don’t see me and yet still believe.
See John 20:24-29
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/John#20:24
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Do you really think that if more direct archaelogical evidence was found of Jesus Christ's existence, that people would believe in God? Phillip spent personal time with Jesus and still didn't believe in God. Listen to the exchange between them:
John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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