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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Mangy Peasant, your point out that the force on the anchor is the same whether you fall 20 feet or 200. It is mostly correct, as the longer the fall, the more stretch on the rope. Many alpine climbers, including myself, have held 200" falls. That is not a pleasant experience as your hand can get burned. The steeper the climb, the less the chance of hitting the face.
What I hear from the discussion is that many of us have changed our views on risk as we grew older. What was acceptable to us as young punks is not to a typical family men. Changing the route by adding bolt(s) is in a way selfish on the part of the old crowd, as there are many young punks out there who will want to take the challenge. I really wonder how many of us from this forum will actually go back to do the third pitch if bolts were added. I bet just a handful!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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all this talk of taking a HUGE leader fall is funny. HOW MANY of you have ever taken a fall on tuolumne knobs?? Probably not many.. Its NOT a place to fall at...for the most..
Dude, that's because so few people actually do these routes with no pro. People fall all the time on Tuolumne Knobs and the sport climb, Bachar Yerian, has seen many falls, but fortunately has a few bolts per pitch.
If you've got a roped party, there's time for it to start to rain, and on a face pitch with no bolts, it's only 5.7 if you take a good line. Off route, could be much harder
Peace
karl
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Thanks for the Raging Waters story, Steve.
I had a lot of breakfasts with Dan and Craig that summer.
Very pleasant guys, who displayed much less ego than other hot climbers
that I have been exposed to.
When they were getting ready to vacate, they simply told my partner and me
that they were pulling their bolts out.
I didn't realize the implications or the back story. No clue of threats or
trying to sell it.
I believe it was just a few months later that Dan was severely injured in
Europe.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Changing the route by adding bolt(s) is in a way selfish on the part of the old crowd, as there are many young punks out there who will want to take the challenge.
I would guess there are many, many more people young and old who would climb the third pitch with a few bolts, than folks want the challenge of no pro. Not saying that is an iron clad reason to change it, just sayin.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Somehow Ron, the argument that protection isn't necessary because nobody ever falls on 5.7 is suspicious
particularly if the argument is that they never fall on 5.7 because falling is unthinkably dangerous because of lack of pro
to me, it's just more elitist talk trying to keep gumbies out of the Climbing area, not just "upholding the traditional historical nature of the area" Times change. Yosemite Valley has adopted techniques unthinkable in it's past and so has Tuolumne. They just bolt up the 5.11+ and especially the 13s
Peace
Karl
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Was thinking that last summer when I climbed Magical Mystery Tour and stared out over all that beautiful slab to the right of it.
To say that soloing a line locks it away forever from any less death-defying ascent strikes me as "misappropriation of resources." I'm starting to like that phrase. Who gave anyone that right?
I'm with you on all the beautiful slab and "misappropriation of resources".
You can get high up on the Glacier Apron not doing moves harder than 5.9+. But you can't get up there, with what I would consider a reasonable risk level, if you are a 5.9+/10- leader. I've always wished there was a long route there for the slab newbish, 5.9 leaders.
As far as who gave anyone that right that's pretty simple.
The bolt cutters.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Do what thou wilt...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I would think it to be a no brainer that by adding say SIX bolts to that last pitch, it would become an instant "classic" on mtn projects lisitng,, a "must do". Ive always wanted to do the RR on fairview,,,but,,,,I have never climbed in a line and will never climb in a line, so ill probably never do the RR on fairview. Carefull what ya wish for....
I'd argue that moderates like the RR on fairview are so crowded because there are so few routes with reasonable pro in TM. You're assuming that if people don't climb the chicken route, they'll simply sit at the grill, no, they'll wait in line for something with no death in the cards
Shagadelic isn't a "sport" route but close by tuolumne standards. Tons of new routes on Dozier now have reasonable pro. Almost nobody is putting up death routes in TM anymore, it's just that the classic lines were done long ago
Peace
karl
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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When we are making plans in the campground for what to climb the next day in the meadows, we make the list and talk and if someone says "that one is pretty old school" everyone knows what that means. If an old school route gets on the list, everybody knows there is going to be a little extra adventure involved and the anticipation is heightened.
I think it really adds to the mix to have some "old school" routes. Of course a couple of bolts on the last pitch of SC would not change its designation as old school.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Are the postings of the same twenty plus people the community? I climbed with some young punks this summer who are excellent trad climbers and love the older stuff. The ones I climbed with love learning about the histroy and valued how routes were done. I again say that I respect all forms of climbing and hope that there will always be accurate representations of all those forms not just for myself, but for future generations of climbers. All these forms are well represented at all levels in TM, from 5.0 to 5.14? From safe to the so called "death climb". Don't I, and others, have the right to try them all? To experience them as they were originally intended? If I want to have 150' between me and the belayer, isn't that up to me? And if someone is in over there heads, isn't that up to them? Just as we can never feel what the FA's felt the first time they led a line, adding something to that line will change it. You can skip the add on, but you still know it happened. Yes, they are "art,sport,and climb" (paraphrasing) in a community but so were most artist and one can trace that art through the ages by seeing those paintings etc. unchanged. What a beautiful thing it is to see the changes in Picasso over his lifetime. Glad he didn't go back and change his younger stuff because of how he felt later in life.... So I appeal directly to Rick. Please don't change the history of your life! Revel in it! You were young and brash? So were most of us! You've changed as you've aged? So have most of us! Go out and do art which represents who you are know! Put up a climb that represents the change so we can see it and appreciate it..But please don't change your past because your art is beautiful. And I'm responsible for how I interact with it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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If I want to have 150' between me and the belayer, isn't that up to me?
Check with the belayer. It's not ok with me.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Most longtime partners know and share the fate....mine does.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Then you're all set.
My partners don't want to be 150 ft. out, and they don't want me to put them in that position either.
There's a reason we're all still around 35 years later.
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Wormly81
Trad climber
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I think if everyone put as much thought into how their actions affect others as this FA'ist, then our community as a whole would be better off. Moreover, I think that the force of a community who cares and thinks is the best way to protect our resources, and our access to those resources.
I don't feel like its my place to take a position one way or another on the bolts, but just want to point out theres going to be a bunch of whiners no matter what is done. The people who feel the need to vocalize their opinion the loudest typically have delusions regarding their own importance in this world and the meaningfulness of their experiences.
Bolts or no bolts, people will still go up that route and have some of the most shockingly beautiful experiences sharing an amazing natural environment and the bonds that form between men/women with shared goals, dreams, and aspirations. A history and future of beautiful experiences is what I value most, and I can appreciate that the FA ponders whether his actions have created the most fertile ground for such pursuits.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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To experience them as they were originally intended?
Random thoughts:
There is NO way to experience a climb as it was originally "intended" unless you are the FA party or if no one has bolted, chipped, rubbed smooth, or documented the climb in any way on purpose or by accident. Bolts are just a small part of things that alter the experience.
Are retro-bolts any worse than large numbers of trad climbers polishing a route so smooth that it is a few points harder than what the FA experienced? Dang that polishing can make an "easy" routes hard. I guess that since the route is made harder by the community, it's OK. Just don't make it easier?
Dave
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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I think I'm starting to understand survival's point.
Does seem a bit odd that completing the whole line would mean you would climb with a rope/gear for two pitches and then one person in the party would have to solo the next pitch.
How far above the belay does it become a death fall? If you fell after 20, 40, 60... feet?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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i can't see what the big deal about running out a full ptch of 5.7 is. Everyone I new use to solo it on a fairly regular basis. i use to when i was a 5.9 climber. onsight. i wonder if the reason most people are choosing not to do the third pitch is due to some other reason, like to avoid a long hike. where is the sense of adventure? if you wouldn't fall on it with a top rope, why not lead it? climbers are getting to sissified. i won't even use the p word, cuz girls are more apt to step up to the plate these days. if you call yourself a 5.9 climber, you should be able to run out 5.7. the first 40 ft. are'nt runnout. if it's to much for ya, learn to down climb.
You calling Original Stonemaster Rick A a sissy? Cause even he says he wasn't up to leading the 5.7 pitch on his own route which he had obviously even done before so it wasn't even going to be an onsight?
Peace
karl
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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I don't know. I just hate to see so many routes getting "dumbed down" because the level of climbing ability in any one area is dropping off to accommodate the lowest common denominator.
Does EVERY established older route have to be retro-bolted so that EVERY climber has access to it?
What about allowing climbers to improve their ability by having some routes that are well-protected and then some that are completely run out? There are plenty of good, well-protected 5.6-58s in Tuolumne for people to climb before they challenge themselves on more serious run-out routes.
Leave some adventure and inconvenience in climbing so that climbers can grow, improve and have a wider range of climbing experiences/adventures. We don't do anyone any favors by going back and adding placing bolts on routes that have true commitment and grace.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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i can't see what the big deal about running out a full ptch of 5.7 is.
Because if you bust a knob up at the high end, you could be a dead man. I fail to see how you miss that. You're not just endangering your life, but the life of your belayer.
survival, if you don't wanna be 150 ft. out, simply don't do the climb. As it stands, I won't.
i use to when i was a 5.9 climber. onsight. When you were a 5.9 climber? I was a 5.12 climber, and I'll stand my balls next to any 5.9 climber on the planet. That's not the point. It's needlessly putting you and your partner on the line for 5.7.
climbers are getting to sissified. i won't even use the p word,
That's rich, for a 5.9 guy. Are you calling me a sissy or a pussy?
At least Honnold will only take himself out, not a belayer. That's one of the crucial parts of my argument. I've soloed plenty.
Geez, and we had such a civil chat going on here.
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Byran
climber
Merced, CA
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This isn't A6, we're talking about a pitch of 5.7X here. No one is going to rip out that 3 bolt anchor and kill their belayer.
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