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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Dec 31, 2007 - 07:30pm PT
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exposeur
Trad climber
santa cruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
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woody, being more aggressive doesn't seem to be helping, though..
bombing from afar and killing so many innocents is definitely not going to win us any honor points. it only creates more terrorists.
you might remember an interview with osama, when asked about killing civilians, he smiled and brought up hiroshima. but you might think that was a good idea?
also, regarding worst prez: bushy has borrowed more than every other president combined!
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Dec 31, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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Woody, learn your history.
US was mad at Iran for not letting their oil companies run in Iran. So they overthrew the Iranian democratic gov't and put in a terrible one which killed lots of innocent people for 20 years which made the people mad and attack the US embassy.
"caving" as you call it is totally wrong. They didn't cave, they failed to do a complete job of fixing the problem in 52. They now have learned their lesson. In order to get oil companies functioning, you have to invade and occupy the nation in a 'long war', not just use the CIA to overthrow the current administration.
So give em a break, they did learn their lesson. From now on out, when a country either refuses to let oil companies work, or like in Iraq and now Iran's case, when they start selling oil for anything other than US dollars, they will do more than replace an elected official with a dictator.
I'm surprised at the 'depth' of some of you American's knowledge of your own history.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Dec 31, 2007 - 09:31pm PT
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right on, tooth, the covert US foreign policy in the mid east and in south america has brought nothing but devastation to both sides of the borders. HumanLives, resources, economies, democracy itself...all demolished. Can't wait to see what happens when the Big Bully US meets the Big Bully China.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Dec 31, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
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"However, the world is a far more dangerous place today because we didn't deal with this issue effectively early on."
Well, that's the party line, and it seems to be false to me. Bush's "action" appears to made things 100x worse and emptied the treasury.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Dec 31, 2007 - 10:26pm PT
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There's a lot about Carter I like, but he's a big part of the reason the embassy was taken in the first place. That's a lot more troublesome to me than his failure to respond to it once it had happened.
I'm with Tooth on this one. Saying that we didn't deal with stuff early on is to miss the point that much of what we see is blowback for what the U.S. did early on (not what the U.S. failed to do), and what Bush has continued to do in his simplistic, juvenile, bull in a china closet, infantile, chest-thumping, ignorant way (woops...did I betray my feelings?)
And what's with all this tough talk about how you don't piss off the U.S.? Come on!
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 31, 2007 - 10:47pm PT
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I'm rather amused by the emphasis on the concept of "blowback".
That is as "imperial" a concept as imaginable.
It assumes that all actions must be a reaction to what we do as an omnipotent historical presence, that there are no independent opperators with agendas of their own, that the world really does dance to our tune.
It's the kindergarden view of history.
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Idi Amin kinda sucked
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Just follow the money is all we have to do. And it reveals a disgusting story.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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TFT
I just spoke with a 56yr old Iranian periodontist who agrees that my view of the Iran issue is the prevailing attitude there.
Growing up in the US may have left you with a different world view than he, but that doesn't make them wrong or change their views of their own experienced history.
I wonder if overthrowing a government can be considered an act of war?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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History will not be kind to W. No other president has been so consistently wrong on each and every major agenda item he faced. I suppose the lesson to be learned is that when we elect a "flat-earther" to high office, he will lead us from there.
Curt
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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DaftRat once again I have to remind you not to take hollywood as the paragon of truth in history. TR NEVER invaded Morocco as you insist on believing. There were NEVER American boots on the ground in Morocco. That situation was successfully resolved through DIPLOMATIC NEGOTIATION. A concept you seem to have NO grasp of.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Phil wrote: That situation was successfully resolved through DIPLOMATIC NEGOTIATION. A concept you seem to have NO grasp of.
Phil...it's so much easier to kill.
Jimmy Carter came into office after the debacle that was Nixon and Ford...a basket of lemons so to speak. Carter did a number of great things while in office...cleaning up after a criminal like Nixon wasn't easy and tried to established a decent moral standard back to the office.
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Jesus!
Trad climber
Tulsa
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Fatrad,
Are you Jody and his evil twin?
I don't think I want anything to do with either of you.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Just a cautionary note: Bush's record will ultimately be established quite a few years from now. It will be based on Iraq and the ultimate consequences of the US involvement there. Keep in mind that Truman's reputation at the end of his term was worse than Bush's at this point. I'm no fan of Bush, but how all this will turn out in the end, no one knows. Opinions fine, clairvoyance no.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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If you think history will be kind to Shrub, you are a bigger idiot than he is.
See if you can name ONE thing he did right.
Here's some of what you (bushbots) are up against:
1. Squander world wide good will ( including Iran) after 9/11.
2. FEMA disaster in New Orleans, both feet in mouth several times over.
3. Gave MIC a whole new meaning, beyond anything Eisenhower imagined, and Ike was scared to death about it. This one covers a multitude of sins.
4. established the USA as an advocate of Torture.
5. DEBT.
6. Cronyism to the max!
7. Stem cell research destroyed in the US. I need this. YOU need this. I'll probably die because Bush killed me, indirectly. So will a lot of others.
8. Medical care for veterans. Wait, maybe THIS is the biggest reeking pile of the Bush admin. Send Americans to die for no good reason, with no concrete plan for the following occupation ( "they will welcome us with open arms and flowers"), and then fail them MISERABLY when they come home maimed. GOOD JOB KING GEORGE!
9. Mercenary Contractors pillaging the public funds and doing a crap job. Contractors from companies that Made Cheney's net worth go from 1 mil to 60 mil almost over night-- certainly less than 3-4 years. Not only did the charge way too much, they didn't even come close to delivering. Even Bill Gates would blush.
Remember "restoring honesty and integrity to the white house"?
Why oh why can't someone give Bush a BJ so we could impeach him?
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Since 9/11 President Bush has stopped Terror Attacks against America. That is a fact. None can argue with this.
Also, under president Bush we have exported more of the middle class Jobs to China than Clinton ever did.
Juan
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Jesus!
Trad climber
Tulsa
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Bush's record has already been established.
He went to war on an unarmed and sovereign nation, and without any plan whatsoever. Before that, he instituted a program of illegal surveillance upon his countrymen and stood before us all and lied about it seven times. Bush gave us an opportunity to legalize torture, and more than doubled the National Debt and the debt to Social Security and medicare. Bush gave us one million dead and countless maimed, and the prospect of war with yet another unarmed and sovereign nation; fought presumably by the private army which has flourished in his court. Under Bush, any of us may be renditioned to a secret place of inquisition without being charged with a crime, and without recourse or representation. Bush showed us the true meaning of compassionate conservatism and the moral majority, and for this we may all give thanks.
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