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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 15, 2007 - 11:11am PT
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I have three kids, the youngest is now in 8th grade (Damn I am old!). My kids have experienced schools (public and private) in three states including Utah. If you think a private school can provide a good education (K-8) for under $4,000 I would say you are crazy. You are talking what, $340 per month or so?
You pay for what you get. Having said that, it is very child and parent dependant. If the parent doesnt give a damn about school how can you expect te child to?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Sep 15, 2007 - 11:36am PT
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no one would be sending their kids to public schools and this would upset the NEA who does not want to be held to higher, competitive standards...
Uh, it's actually "private schools" and home schooled kids who aren't required to do CRCT or any other kind of testing...so consider that "no standards"...
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2007 - 11:54am PT
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Even being LDS i disagree with funding religious based schools. In my opinion, church and the home is for learning of God.
LEB, "I think if we had a voucher system, you would see a mass exodus from the public schools into the private schools replete with their "under-qualified" non-NEA teachers."
This is the one thing that worries me about this program. The goal should be to fix public education not destroy it. We can't allow public school to be left with only the kids from homes that don't give a damn. I personally don't think this will happen, because private schools will have a hard time providing the Sports teams and all that go with it.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 15, 2007 - 11:55am PT
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Good thread and good points made.
I have spent the last two years relating to public schools as an outside service provider, being able to design and deliver programs in mountaineering, environmental ed, or the new preferred term "place-based" ed. I have been invited into various schools and classrooms to "enrich" the student experience at a time when "enrichment" activities are being eliminated. One thing that has made it easier for a lot of my work is that I come with my own funding, I get small grants from the county to do this, so the participants pay nothing, and I am not asking stressed out teachers to spend time scrapping for money.
As an entrepreneur I view the gross inefficiencies of the bloated bureaucracies of school systems, and how much funding is wasted by them as a real problem. With an overly idealistic view, I can imagine how small groups of the many committed teachers I encounter, having access to voucher funding, could do a great job forming small schools perhaps with differing emphasis. Then parents could "shop around" choosing the best fit for their kids. The market would then prevail, by reputation and results, schools would thrive or not. Sure there have been abuses and criminal behavior in a few charter schools, but I think they are the exception, and we hear about them because they get caught.
There are plenty of problems with this "imagination", like who would want their kids to be "customers" of one of the schools that did not thrive? But, there are so many problems with the system as it is today that the risk overall could be worth it.
In any case I think that the answers to many of our problems today, whether it be environmental, economic, or educational will be solved in the future by decentralization and dispersed distribution to very local control, meeting the needs of local conditions. Pretty much how natural systems "self organize".
Peter
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 11:59am PT
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Most private school pay suck-wad wages, and have poor medical and retirement benefits too; why would an intelligent, hard-working educated family man or woman wish this upon themselves? Yeah, public education is hurting, but the school I work at has awesome, hard-working, kind, caring, highly educated teachers;...the ones that don't get hired to work at my school, often go work at private schools. They get better test results because they have smaller class sizes, they weed out "undesirables", they rule with intimidation, religious guilt, parents "help" who aren't trained in educationally sound practices,........ many private schools look good on paper, but almost all of the awesome teachers I know would never teach at a private school and get paid serf wages that would put them in the poverty level. Plain and simple, private school do not attract a higher level of teachers because of their lower wages and benefits, and private schools get more freedom with teaching standards, which can easily be abused.......Blaming teachers for the problems in public education has been going on for years, and is more often than not, a scapegoat for the real problems which have been created by our society and by parents whose own stuggles with life have overtaken their parental effectiveness.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:27pm PT
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LEB;....maybe you are right with the competition angle;....but as it stands, I cannot support my family on private school wages;...I wouldn't even consider it, and neither almost all of the teachers I know. I only know one teacher friend of mine who switched over to private school, and he was already retired, had a public school retirement already, wanted to work at a school which was christian based, and wanted to help a cause which he believed in;....he is a rare exception (and an awesome teacher too!).......teachers just aren't into working for oftentimes 1/2 wages and poorer retirement and benefits, just to have lower classroom sizes , higher test scores, and a bible to thump, or guru to slobber over. Teachers today are smart and tough, or they quit; it's a good thing because they need to be smart and tough with the kids and parents our society is producing today.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2007 - 12:29pm PT
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Todd, The problem is not the teachers, it's the parents and class sizes IMO.
EDIT: cross posted... guess you already knew that. :-)
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:40pm PT
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Parents with hardships and class size is a factor, no doubt. Teaching is tough now a days;...alot of really cool, kind, caring, smart people don't want to teach anymore;...it's just tool gnarly for them. My wife taught for 8 years, but doesn't want to teach anymore. Yeah, we have 3 infants at home and she can't really go back to work, but I think she had had enough of poor working conditions, rude parents, naughty kids, disrespectful and corrupt administrators, and, with a master's degree, she could make more money doing something else, and not get "beat up" so much. I see her point. I still like teaching, and enjoy many aspects of my chosen profession, but won't miss the "crappy" side of teaching when I retire. I have hung in there for close to 30 years;...I have seen alot and taught alot of kids, and still think teachers are awesome and still remember the teachers in my life that cared about me, worked hard for me, and helped give me skills which I would need and could use in my life to make things better for me and my family. It's really an awesome profession in many respects, and full of challenges and rewards that are supersized....but you have to be able to take some serious belly-punches on the bumpy road to glory.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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LEB....yes, a classroom is NOT suppose to be a war zone, but unfortunately teaching today can be quite challenging. Remember that teachers are committed to teaching all children, no matter what shape we recieve them. Today, at private schools, yes;.. the kids are most often better behaved, better mannered, better students, and better test takers;....no wonder parents are spending big bucks to get this opportunity for their children. The poor parents who have drug problems, maritial problems, abuse at home, no education themselves, had babies as teenages themselves;....THEY cannot afford to send their kids to private schools.....so their oftentimes troubled little ones don't taint the "gene-pool_ of our elite public schools....BUT with vouchers.......well;.....I hope our private school are willing to welcome with open arms, all the naughty troubled children of the tweeky-toothless-tatooed parents, because if they have the money, they want "what is best" for THEIR little grubbers too. Then our private institutions would be just as messed up as our public schools, who are committed to teach all children, no matter how undesirable or difficult they are.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 01:29pm PT
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LEB;..yeah ;..my wife is awesome and I respect her decision to not teach anymore;...she does like and enjoy to be treated respectfully, as we all do. This year at school I have many "troubled" kids, and it is my job and challenge to help them along the path of life for the short period of time I get to spend with them,, point them in the right direction, and try to help them develop some skills to encourage them to want to be happy, healthy contributing adults someday in the future...;....99% of the time I am ready, psyched, and happy to give it my best;.....somedays I am beatdown, depressed, angry, frustrated, and sad that what I have to do everyday is so tough, frustrating, and heart-wrenching.......BUT....then I play with my babies at home, enjoy my family, spent time with my awesome wife, go climbing with Tucker Tech...(yikes!), ...drink 3 six-packs of malt liquor (not really...), .....and do it all again;....and it all seems sort of O K and worthy/worthwhile.......and the ball keeps rolling, the bills get paid, the challenges at work keep coming, and I get to "feed the rat" with my bad bolt habit. Overall, Life is sweet!....and it's all good;....good enough anyways....It's what I do and I am happy " in my own skin."
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 01:49pm PT
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Our problems in education ALL started with the Kennedys;....bleeding heart liberals who gave all our hard-earned money to crackheads on welfare, ...they smoked pot in the White House, drove cars off of bridges, crashed airplanes into the sea, slept with movie stars in the White House;......THAT is what we get for putting an Irish Catholic into the White House.
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
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A few posts back, LEB wrote "our administrators are pansies who cater to whining, liberal parents. It is NOT class size. It is respect and discipline which is the problem, here. Your liberal administrators have disempowered you." Administrator here LEB, and your ignorance truly inpires me !! I would agree with you that respect and discipline would go a long way. But, if you haven't noticed, respect and self-discipline are things that need to be taught as well as enforced through punitive measures.
I spend a lot of time doing both. In 15 years of being a middle school principal I have suspended thousands of students and probably expelled 300. In most cases, suspension and expulsion doesn't change behavior!! What does change behavior is 1. truly believing in a child's ability to change. 2. Being willing and able to be a change agent for that child. 3. Giving children real opportunities to make choices and understand consequences. In short, good parenting !! Most administrators, good or bad, would be run out of town on a rail if they didn't support teachers in discipline. My teachers know that I've got their backs as long as they are consistent and fair, and their actions are truly in the child's best interest. Not always an easy decision. Then again.....it's probably easier to point the finger of blame at liberal and pansy administrators. You are truly an ass LEB!
Cracko
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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Cracko;....just a thought for you, as an administrator , to chew on.....We have a new principal this year, and he is AWESOME.....he is smart, kind, and caring, and in almost 3 decades of teaching, he seems the nicest! (He was a teacher for 15 years so he knows what we do...) You can't believe the change on our campus;.....Being an administrator is one tough job;.....our last principal wasn't as kind and supportive as I would have liked;...but it's a brave new world;.....teaching is tough enough, and with a kind, caring, supportive principal, our tough job is made so much better and easier.......horray for cool/kind/supportive administrators!
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:30pm PT
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Todd,
Good to hear from you again. You've got a good one! Keep him!
Despite LEB's call for more "iron fist" discipline, my experience says that a majority of today's administrators are running so scared from NCLB and Program Improvement status, that they have become autocratic micro-managers who DO NOT support or empower teachers, and are truly afraid to think outside the box. Sadly, this is what we have created in the public school sector! Stay the course Todd !! There are millions of kids who need us !!!
Cracko
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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thank you Cracko, say hello to Kelly Flynn for me......
it's always amusing to read about the dysfunctional public school system when it's one of the most efficient institutions we have.
for those of you laying the bulk of your angst about societies ills on the doorstep of public education, please feel free to use any data you may have on school district organization.
and maybe, to show an example of a more efficient system based on the 'free market', reference the insurance industry, the mortgage industry, the military industry, etc...
but i suppose with a VO-tech mentality, social constructs are a little complicated.
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:43pm PT
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LEB
"Is this how you deal with your teachers who disagree with you, as well" On occassion yes! But, they tend to love me nonetheless, because it is not what you say that matters....it is how you say it. Your condescending, self-righteous tone is what bothers me. I am NEVER condescending or self-righteous with my teachers. In fact, my personal philosophy is that if you have to "lay" into somebody in determining blame, lay into yourself first! That's usually the best place to start !! Try it LEB, you might be surprised how effective it is !!
Cracko
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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OK LEB......but you really are not listening! Maybe a good wood paddle with drilled holes would do the trick !!! Do have a nice weekend!
Cracko
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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By the way LEB,
"but if your approach to conflict is to call others names, I am not sure how effective you can be.
Was this not your approach in calling all administrators liberal pansies ???? I would agree that this was not very effective.
Cracko
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E.L. "One"
Big Wall climber
Lancaster, California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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OK LEB, it was fun....please carry on without me!
Cracko
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
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Well,
Since I have taught and know the system, let me just say... Give me fewer kids in my classroom. (Let us say around 25 kids instead of having my class sizes between 36 to 47 students.) Let my students be grouped by skill and aptitude so when I teach to the lowest denominator I am not going too slow. Also, let me kick out children that are really out of control and haven't turned in an assignment for the past four months. (Let us put those students in a "much smaller classroom" where a teacher can really address them since it is obvious they have severe needs.) Plus, let me teach!!! Don't insist on politically correct lessons since that means we leave out the truth in history which makes it extremely boring!
If you do that for me, I will in turn run a high performance classroom that will knock your socks off.
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Kids are not the problem, teachers are not the problem. It is the actual set up that overworks teacher and messes up the students. Students get confused more since we are mixing skill levels into one classroom. When we mix skill levels, no single lesson plan can reach all of them. Plus, I can't properly address everyone's needs in thirty-five minutes of instruction time for forty-seven students.
And...
Private school don't have a state set curriculum. They can teach the bible instead of history and don't need anyone to pass algebra for graduation etc. They also don't need to accept problem, disabled, or foreign students. If you claim private schools have better test scores, well... If I only accepted my best students into my school then which of us will score the highest?
Plus how are their teachers better than us when they don't require their teachers to have credentials? Also since they pay their teachers much less, who will accept a position of lesser pay?
I think the voucher program will privatize education. The poor will end up with unfunded, dilapidated schools that only they will be forced to attend. The rich will have the best resources and the best opportunities. It will be the final straw to the stratification of our society that will put us in class system. The poor will remain poor, no one can rise above and the rich will hoard their position.
Public education is as American as Apple pie. If it goes away, so does the concept that any American can work their way up.
AF
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