Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 02:07pm PT
|
wilcox510,
It's mojede, and I meant stake. Got kids? One case is not all that the book is about. Mercury poison (often MISTAKEN for autism) cases went from the tens to the thousands in more than one state when Thimerisol vaccinations were mandated in the late 80's/early 90's. Not one case-- tens of thousands! Do you know why Thimerisol is added (was) to vaccines? Did you know that 10 years prior to it being removed from human vaccines that Veternarians demanded that it be removed from pet vaccinations? No personal attack, fellow climber, just don't be saying that there is no proof when tens of thousands of stunned parents will surely disagree with you when their children are sitting on the sofa messing themselves and stirring a glass of water for hours. In almost ALL of these cases, their perfectly happy and normally progressing infants went into walking comas (if you will) after getting injected 4 TIMES per visit 4 TIMES until they were two. The children became irritable and began to cry constantly, then they just checked out, never to be the child they once were. Know your facts, my friend, for your future child's welfare is at stake.
The "pharmers" were encouraged by the FDA to remove Thimerisol from the vaccines, and did--but did not pull the already made vaccines from the shelves because they were not forced to and did not want to lose money.
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 02:59pm PT
|
It is sad that the topic can't be discussed without red herrings like patents. The existing regulation exists independent of whether the substances are patented, or patentable. The proposed would be as well.
Sad also that it can't be discussed at the level of abstraction appropriate to the legislation. Instead of discussing the why's, we need to jump into the what's.
The real question is whether and why the Federal Government or any other governmental agency should have this role? Would the role be better filled by some sort of industry self-regulated organization. Is regulation needed at all? Why?
Instead the thread wanders down discussion of the merits of specific substances and the benefits or dangers of specific substances. Kind of LEBesquan.
Anecdote after example, none of which helps to answer the question. Drift on!
|
|
wilcox510
climber
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 03:52pm PT
|
"just don't be saying that there is no proof when tens of thousands of stunned parents will surely disagree with you when their children are sitting on the sofa messing themselves and stirring a glass of water for hours" - that is not proof. That is absolutely not evidence that their autism was caused by immunizations. Their is a difference between correlation and causality, the example you present are only correlational, they do not prove causality. I do know the facts. Here is the conclusion of a study published in Pediatrics, the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics:
"CONCLUSIONS: Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD (autistic spectrum disorders), and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions."
from: Thimerosal-containing vaccines and autistic spectrum disorder: a critical review of published original data.
Pediatrics. 2005 Jan;115(1):200. No abstract available.
PMID: 15630018 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
I'm sure you can pull up some articles that suggest differently. I am a health care professional and I have yet to find a pediatrician or family practitioner who does not whole heartedly endorse immunizations or who has chosen to not immunize their children (which you can do by the way, at least here in Utah). Nothing you provided is evidence, just anecdotal. When I have kids yes they will be immunized, and yes, suggesting you hope I don't have children for their "stake" (what's that supposed to mean? check a dictionary) is a personal attack. This discussion isnt going to go anywhere so I'm done. Happy climbing.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 03:54pm PT
|
The devils in the the details Tiggy. That's why it's helpful to look at examples.
The patentability of a substance controls if somebody is willing to spend $100 million doing studies with it.
The drug companies don't care about our health.
For example, there is only ONE drug that treats that African Sleeping Sickness. It was actually developed to treat something else but turned to to help Sleeping Sickness. WHen a better drug came along for the original target of the drug, the manufacterer wanted to quit making it all together and just let the Sleeping Sickness victims go to hell. I don't trust em
Peace
karl
|
|
TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 04:11pm PT
|
Sorry Karl.
You think the details are important perhaps because you can't work at the correct level of abstraction.
The important questions to answer are:
Should commerce of any substances be regulated? Should possession of those substances be regulated? Should ingestion / or application of them be regulated, etc. These are a why and what questions.
If the answer is yes, there should be answer that is also at a certain level of abstraction that determines which substances not by just listing them, but by establishing the principle by which we vest some authority with their regulation and determining according to that principle how to categorize existing and possible future substances into regulated or unregulated and where in the regulations they fit.
Then there is the question of who should regulate, if and only if the answer to any of the questions above turn out to be yes. None of these anecdotes or examples help to do anything other than point out that individuals do not have the time or education to research each item by him or herself. That alone is significant, but is not necessarily sufficient to support entrusting some organization with regulation.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 04:14pm PT
|
wilcox510, as a health care provider, you obviously know the difference between "autism" (hard to define medically) and mercury poisoning (easy to define). As long as there are hcp's like you believing everything you are told by the AMA and FDA the world and it's children are safe--hoorah. I've read the study you cite and it's the same story that's been rehashed since the "problem" came to light 15 years ago. What would you expect them to say? "Yeah, we mandated that poison, oops, we effed-up." IF it is so safe and doesn't do harm, why then, did they remove it from the vaccines?
I have nothing against vaccines, for they have saved countless more lives than not. Find a mate, have children and then I might be able to understand your position--until then, keep on climbing and do what you are told in your profession, you'll be a happy lemming.
sidebar: my wife's mother was told by her MD in the late 60's that she could smoke 10 cigarettes a day while pregnant--good to see some objective ,free-thinking, and questioning people practicing medicine. Luckily, we now have medical practitioners that question "authority" in the interest of the patients, not pay-stubs.
Happy climbing to you to. AND, the discussion ended when the sound of your mind closing echoed all the way up here to Montana.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 05:26pm PT
|
(insert condescending statement here) TIG
"The important questions to answer are:
Should commerce of any substances be regulated? Should possession of those substances be regulated? Should ingestion / or application of them be regulated, etc. These are a why and what questions. "
These things are already regulated, and in my opinion, generally over-regulated. Furthermore there is too much politics in those regulations, thus pot gets you thrown in jail but more dangerous ETOH and Tobacco are on every street corner. The FDA particularly holds up drugs for terminally ill folks for too long while they find out if they are safe. What a joke!
Peace
Karl
|
|
bler
Boulder climber
Alamo, CA
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2007 - 05:54pm PT
|
this would also include massage therapy if you use 'lotions, creams or oils'
who the f*#k was the retard in the FDA that approved the 'atkins diet', the FDA is a clusterf*#k of politics and big business.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!