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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2018 - 11:58pm PT
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Lee has excluded current parks and monuments from consideration of conveyance.
That goes without saying. Parks and monuments are a fraction of the land which is managed by the BLM and USFS.
He's only talking about a percentage of the remaining holdings deemed ordinary.
That's a carte blanche if I've ever seen one.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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The reference headline in your op says "all national public lands in the west".
Now Ksolem, its pretty clear this gross misrepresentation is designed to whip up a hysterical response in the usual suspects- often better known as useful idiots.
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Jim Clipper
Gym climber
from the ground up
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TFRU!
Thanks for rabbling up!
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Thanks for the heads up, Ksolem. I signed it.
Mike Lee said:
A “new” Homestead Act could expand the law to allow states, local governments, and individuals to petition the government to use that land for affordable housing… or education… or health care or research.
Utah’s housing prices continue to sky-rocket, leaving affordable housing out of reach for far too many. Meanwhile, millions of acres of land sit untouched.
It is important to note here that we are not talking about national parks or monuments. We Utahns are certainly not opposed to having picturesque vistas or preserving national treasures.
But we are talking about the ordinary land that is just sitting there, unused and under a federal stranglehold.
How much would an infusion of affordable land into our economy help young couples and families being priced out of expensive cities and the best suburban school districts?
For that matter, just imagine what opening up this land would do for young entrepreneurs, or to attract existing businesses to create new jobs.
How many schools, churches, hospitals, medical research centers, innovation hubs, and affordable homes could we build even on just a fraction of this land?
It's pretty clear what Mike Lee wants to do with the all the public lands along the Wasatch Front (since basically none of this land is a national park or national monument). Some people don't want to see this turned into more urban sprawl and Mike Lee clearly does. If you wanna see the urban sprawl of places like Las Vegas and Salt Lake City continue to expand into once protected areas like Red Rocks Canyon and Wasatch National Forest, go along with Mike Lee's plan. If you don't want that, stand against him. It's a free country.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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With the United State's failing and under-funded infrastructure system it hardly makes sense to create more wreckless sprawl...Where's the water and resources going to come from...? I'm sure Mike Lee and his real estate lobby buddies have this al figured out...? Right..?
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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Are we so afraid of change that we are willing to sit idle
Only when the change comes from the wrong party...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Relative to areas around the Wasatch front for housing, any of the National Forest land isn't going to be cheaper housing for families...it would be expensive housing for rich folks...same as is already being built around Park City. Sure, there's cheap BLM land way out west past Tooele, but few people are going to want to live out there or that long of a commute.
This is purely a play for high end real estate developers or extractive industry folks.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 09:17am PT
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The reference headline in your op says "all national public lands in the west".
Now Ksolem, its pretty clear this gross misrepresentation is designed to whip up a hysterical response in the usual suspects- often better known as useful idiots.
I, for one, did not read the term "National public lands" to include National Parks. I doubt most others do either. Common usage of "public lands" is NFS and BLM.
Language like "...a percentage of the remaining holdings deemed ordinary," does not inspire my trust. Lee and his associates in this effort would, no doubt, consider most of the open land in CA to be "ordinary."
I'm not one to squeal when there's news of drilling or mining somewhere until I know the facts. We need the materials and energy produced by such means, so long as the benefits outweigh the negatives. That's subjective, but how else do you draw a line.
Lee's proposal for the use of these lands in his state offers no specificity. He paints with a broad brush, and sells the plan as a way to help young people to afford homes, places to build schools, etc. Politicians always spray that kind of stuff, all of the wonderful things which will happen if you just follow me.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Pud, is your overall argument that existing protections of National Parks, USFS, and BLM sufficient? Or that we should do away with one or more of these agencies?
I would like to hear about the privately owned natural places in which you have recreated, and why you think private enterprise will do a better job of it than our governments have.
Let's see if you can come up with more examples of private enterprise providing natural experiences for people that cannot be out-numbered 10:1 by other people sharing examples of government doing it.
Of all the things that need to be fixed in our country, how we handle the "unused ordinary land" is not high on that list.
I admit to starting with a very strong bias based on my direct life experiences, but I am very open to reason and alternative points of view. In principle, the idea of using government-owned land as part of a wealth-distribution program for poor people seems like an interesting idea.
But what I see is that large corporations can already take everything that poor people have to give. Now this is a way of taking a little more by using the poor people to stir up empathy, and then getting at the government-owned land that is a trust for all people and presently protected from corporate growth. Either corporations will reap much more benefit of the deals than the people who would ostensibly be helped... or poor people will get (some of) it and lose it over time as part of the slow bleed of cash from poor to rich... or both.
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sempervirens
climber
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I signed.
It's easy to find ways that the federal gov. is mismanaging public lands because everyone is a stakeholder. We can't please everyone and it costs $ to go through the processes before implementing any change or improvement. That's part of democracy, and it's expensive. Who would be the stakeholder if we privatize BLM and USFS lands?? Management would be more efficient, yes, at serving their own objectives!
Meanwhile the fed. gov. is trying hard to prevent you from being involved in management of federal lands. Here's an article from High Country News about the current effort to gut NEPA (National Environmental Policy Act). NEPA governs the process of planning and decision-making on federal lands.
https://www.hcn.org/articles/public-lands-feds-eye-changes-to-bedrock-environmental-law
Leadership of US forest service is moving rapidly toward making timber volume its highest priority. And watering down NEPA is a huge step in that direction. NEPA itself does not protect the environment. NEPA governs :the process of planning, compliance with fed. environmental laws, and the process of public involvement. It's rather mundane and that gives the advantage to those with a vested $ interest.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Signed it.
Thanks ksolem.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Nut, it’s my assumption that Pud wants to get some throttle therapy wherever he wants, and privatizing public lands would help him accomplish this. Stewardship? Probably not a blip on his horizon. Just me me me, my kids like dirt bikes because I do as well. Give us the land to run over as we please. Conservation? That’s a dumbass liberal word. Fake news, maga and stuff. Where’s Pyro these days? Pud could use a compatriot. Sorry Pud, for using big words that you have to look up to respond to. I’ll keep it to two syllables or less in the future buddy.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 09:53am PT
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To be fair, Lee's proposal does not directly call for privatizing public lands. Rather, he is looking to transfer Federally managed public lands to the states. The argument can be made that these lands, which are within the borders of each individual state, should belong to he state. The argument can also be made that these public lands are a National treasure, and belong equally to all Americans. Even though I'm a big state's rights advocate, on this issue I have contradict myself and agree with the latter argument.
I think that ceding large swaths of public lands to the states will enable extensive privatization. What would these lands look like today if they had not been Federal?
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sempervirens
climber
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"Unused public lands"? Are these lands really unused?
Grazing at very low fees, logging, fire wood cutting that makes heating affordable in rural counties around the west US, ride your dirt bike or OHV on FS lands?, mountain biking, snow mobiles, x-country skiing, backcountry skiing, public events like bike races and fishing derbies that fuel local economies.
In my local federal forest there are: dozens of mines, logging on which most of the county's economy depends, re-enactments of the mormon trail, Christmas tree cutting, a triathlon, horseback riding outfitters, several commercial lodges with restaurants, several active non-profit groups, fishing outfitters, OHV trails, fire lookout rentals, about 75% of the 1.3 million acres are active grazed by cattle every year, researchers, seed collectors, mushroom collectors.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Rather than make this petition become another ST poltical football to kick around, I suggest you either sign it or don’t as you see fit.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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They would be mined, logged, developed for housing, and exploited beyond any level that most of us would be comfortable with. Essentially raped of all their financial goods and left the taxpayer with a huge hole in their heart. The FS conducts enough logging, and the BLM allows enough mining and grazing already, any more is a travesty. Profiteering isn’t the way. What’s next if this goes through?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 10:04am PT
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Rather than make this petition become another ST poltical football to kick around, I suggest you either sign it or don’t as you see fit.
Because the longer everyone argues about it, the longer it stays on the front page?
;-)
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Hitch the horses and load the wagons we're moving to utah for free land and the middle class lifestyle......
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Rather than make this petition become another ST poltical football to kick around, I suggest you either sign it or don’t as you see fit.
Jim, I knew we agreed on some things.
The personal attacks here simply diminish the "argument".
It destroys what little progress may be made by discussing the pros and cons of such a proposal in a civil manner.
Many here play a fantasy role of who they wish they really were/are.
There is no fuking way these folks would talk to me (or anyone else they attack) in person the way they do here. Guaranteed.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Where, ever, have you used facts and cited current policy to make your point Pud?
Never, is the answer.
I love riding dirt bikes as well. Def not as good as you, but the one having the most fun is the best, right?
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