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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Dec 28, 2006 - 08:01pm PT
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Do it Crimp. Otherwise you'll always wonder "what if".
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Louis
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2006 - 08:02pm PT
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Not tenured. I'm 4.5 years in on the 6 year clock. I think the problem is this city. I really hate living in this city.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 28, 2006 - 08:24pm PT
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Do what you want to do... if the "simple life" doesn't work out, you'll find something else that will.
The academic life can be a real stressful process around tenure time. Maybe you are learning that that life is not for you? Whatever you decide to do, you can decide later to do something else.
Believe in yourself, finding the balance is life long work.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2006 - 08:39pm PT
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Crimp,
I'd go for it. Pick a place. Go on a trip. The Blue Mountains up in Katoomba due west of the Sydney Opera House about two hours are just not to be believed. Do the Asia loop. Go to Chile. Go somewhere. I'd do it - why wait for tenure in St. Louis? Having spent time there I could never ever do it, never. And once you're tenured then you'll really be f#cked. Sell it all and follow your heart. Maybe work abroad for a bit. Who knows? You have friends everywhere from here - go girl and keep us all posted.
P.S. New Zealand is perfect right now as well...
P.P.S. Someone on the Charlie thread was talking about yurts in Mongolia...
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turd
climber
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Dec 28, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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Do it!
What could happen?
You can always come back.
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Roman
Trad climber
3 hrs. from Seneca
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Dec 28, 2006 - 08:44pm PT
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I support the suggestion to take a trip or two. It should be all you need to get you refreshed for more regular work. Also try and get out to your local crag a bit more. Unless you are out climbing every free moment you have already then quitting to do more is not the answer. You are right in the middle of the US you got great climbing both to the east and west!
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Dec 28, 2006 - 09:02pm PT
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hard to walk away from something you never had.
But seriously, done the well off husband, rich boyfriend routine, and it just don't work for me.
At my uhm, "high point" (most encumbered), I had a 2,000 sq foot house, 3 acres, 3 horses, 3 dogs, 3 cats, and a husband who made good money. I was extremely unhappy.
Figured out that less was definitely more. Got rid of it all, except one horse and 2 cats.
Now, I can't afford the horse anymore, combination of money and time, and he is going. I'll be down to one incredibly good dog (German Shepard) and plenty of toys to keep me busy. (No not THAT busy!)Besides, I have trainers begging me, and paying me, to ride their horses, I don't need to own one. (I have been down this road before, about 10 years ago)
I rented a house a few years ago, and remembered why I quit living that way, you have to clean those suckers! I get paid to clean some really cool old log cabins, why would I want to clean on my own free time?
I am perfectly content living in a yurt in the summer, and whatever space they give me in the winter, as long as it's warm. I don't have a private bath, but that's Ok, it makes showers feel extravagant when they are twice a week. I feel good about using a lot less resources living this way. I'm on "vacation" right now, hanging out with my dog (and the horse I'm trying to sell) in Bishop, enjoying being outside (except today, when the GD wind chill was vicious!)
When I get back to work, I will still be emerged in being outside more than in, living at 9,650' in the heart of the Sierra's, skiing more than anybody should be able to, digging snow pits, serving scrumptious meals to those who I now consider "impoverished" by their lifestyles. And getting paid pretty well for it!
I have no regrets, other than the wringer I put my ex through. No real desire to *own* anything anymore, like property, animals, etc. Just the tools I need to survive.
My 21 year old son brags to all his friends about me, so that's really all that counts, eh?
The trick will be to maintain this lifestyle as I approach senior-hood. It can be done, and I plan on being as active as I am now into my 70's, at least. I have too many roll models around here to go crying in my soup any day soon.
Edited to add:
This isn't advice, just my boring story. Only you can decide what to do. All I know, for my personality, I love the life I lead and wouldn't change a thing.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Ottawa, Canada
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Dec 28, 2006 - 09:10pm PT
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Well, I'm a bit reluctant to offer advice, seeing as I've mostly learned from my own mistakes. I guess I'd maybe suggest you think about what the worst outcome could be if you chucked it and followed your dreams. If you can live with that, it puts things into perspective.
So mayber a year or two from now you find out that the footloose life really isn't what you want. You're still what? - reasonably young, healthy, well-educated and free to make any decision you want. So other than letting go of the career-path expectations we all seem to suffer from, what's the downside?
By the time I realized that the corporate life wasn't what I wanted I had a very dependent wife, two young children, a mortgae I could choke on and a sh##load of self-inflicted expectations I'd bought into. Makes for more complex decision-making if you want to look yourself in the mirror on a regular basis. So I settle on a few weeks in the mountains every summer because that's the cards I dealt myself.
From what I know of your circumstances, you got some parrots to square things with. I think they live for what, like 80 years or something, so you can probably pick-up things with the bird a few years down the road.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, based on what i've picked up on this site, I gather you are in position where you can make any decision you want, without impacting a lot of other folks in not so good ways. So enjoy your freedom. The things that keep you from your dreams are an illusion.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 28, 2006 - 09:13pm PT
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ftp://tent.xs4all.nl/Peter%20Tosh%20&%20Mick%20Jagger_Walk%20And%20Don't%20Look%20Back.mp3
[may want to tweak some of the words, but the chorus holds if that's what you're into}
(YOU GOT TO WALK AND) DON'T LOOK BACK
Mick Jagger & Peter Tosh
VERSE:
If it's love that you're running from
There is no hiding place
(You can't run, you can't hide, you can't run)
Just your problems no one elses problems
You just have to face
(You can't run, you can't hide, you can't run)
CHORUS:
So if you just put your hand in mine
We're gonna leave all our troubles behind
We gonna walk
And don't look back (Don't look back)
We gonna walk
And don't look back (Don't look back)
VERSE:
Now if your first lover let you down
There's something that can be done
(You can't run, you can't hide, you can't run)
Don't heal your faith in love
Remembering what's become
CHORUS:
So if you just put your hand in mine
We're gonna leave all our troubles behind
We gonna walk
And don't look back (Don't look back)
We gonna walk
And don't look back (Don't look back)
INSTRUMENTAL
CHORUS:
BREAK:
Places behind you
There to remind you
VERSE:
If your first lover broke your heart
Something can be done
(You can't run, you can't hide, you can't run)
Don't heal your faith in love
Remembering whats been lost
(You can't run, you can't hide, you can't run)
CHORUS:
OUTRO
MICK JAGGER and PETER TOSH hold this conversation while background singers continue singing back-up
(P.T.) How far you been walking man?
(M.J.) About a hundred miles
(P.T.) You still got some more to walk man
(M.J.) I know, don't remind me about it
(P.T.) I'm getting tired, but I still got to keep on walking
(M.J.) I'm walking barefoot
(P.T.) You know, keep on walking
(M.J.) You got to walk and don't look back
(P.T.) Keep on a walking
You got to walk and don't look back
Keep on a walking
You got to walk and don't look back
FADE OUT:
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Dec 28, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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I have to say that in the last few months, I have happened across so many youngish(compared to me - I'm talking mid to late 30's) men who are feeling the pressures of supporting dependants(wives/children). I just never thought about how difficult that must be(I've never been married, and have no kids) - to find yourself stuck bringing home the bacon in a job that is killing you.....
I was lucky that, when I saw the work was doing me in, that I didn't have to worry about what my decision would mean for anyone else.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Dec 28, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
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I think it is better to be walking toward, not away...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Dec 28, 2006 - 10:46pm PT
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Crimpergirl,
This thread is a nice way to see your future.
You have individuals here that have done what you are contemplating.
When I left my last profession I was making very good money, flying around the world and was handed almost anything I wanted just for the asking. Thing is, I didn't get to see my two young sons or my wife very often.
I "walked away" two years ago. I leveraged my house to the hilt, took out business loans and spent ALL of my savings in order to start my own business.
Today my commute is across my backyard, I work when I need to and I spend alot of time just being with my family.
Two years ago I probably would be asleep right now after woking 16 hours in order to get up at 4am and do another 16 or 18 hour day. Or maybe we'd be shooting nights and I'd be running firehose up a hill in some desert somewhere.
I never say never and I may do some FX again but, it will be when and where I want to.
Risk staying where you are or risk finding new pathes.
The wonderful thing is, you are free and you get to choose your risk.
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Dec 28, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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As you know, no one here can really answer your core question for you.
That being said, I did the dirtbag thing (living out of a Mazda 232!) for a couple of years. Before and after that time, there were several other years focused on climbing in a very intense way. I loved it while it lasted and I am very, very glad that I lived that experience; but decided I did not want to spend my whole life this way. The issue, for me, was not money to get stuff, or security, or other ‘normal’ concerns. Rather, I felt like there were parts of myself, important parts, that I was not developing. So, I went back to grad school, got a Ph.D., landed a tenure track job, etc. I can empathize with you current situation, as I am also in a city I dislike (but at a job I really do like) and 4.5 years into the tenure clock (but I am going to apply early next year).
Ultimately, as was said above, I think it is all about balance. However, how that balance plays out is different for each of us. Werner, Karl, you, I, and the rest of the usual suspects on this forum all have different needs, abilities, and desires.
I have to admit, I do still think about changing things. I suffer deeply from "grass-is-greener-itis." Even with a family, I (and my wife) would be willing to jump ship and do something else somewhere else if it seemed right for us. However, I've been offered other jobs in other places and still chose to stay in my current imperfect-but-pretty-damn-good situation.
I definitely dislike the city I live in. On the other hand, I have a job I love, my wife has a job here, I have family here (which is kinda nice as we have kids), etc. I've carved out a life I enjoy. I bike almost everywhere (market, work, park with my kids, beach, coffee house, etc.) to avoid driving. I built a decent woody in my garage, which keeps me fit even if it is the climbing equivalent of a stationary bike. I climb out at Malibu once a week, and spend lots of weekends at Josh, Tahquitz, the Needles, and the Sierra. As an academic, I have lots of long vacations for bigger trips to Alaska, the Bugs, Chamonix, Peru, etc. (I'm lucky that the wife lets me go as often and as long as she does, but I get the impression you are unattached, so such trips would be even easier for you). I try to remind myself of these things when I am suffering from a bout of grass-is-greener-itis... My situation is not 100% perfect, but it is damn good. Do I really want to jump ship from a situation that is 90% good in order to try and make it 100%, when the reality could easily be something 80% (if this silly numbers trope makes any sense)? I also remind myself that I know from experience that dirtbagging was not 100% satisfying.
I don’t think this is “settling,” as life is about balance. Even if I don’t have a “perfect” balance now, I am much closer than when I was dirtbagging it. Given the right opportunity, my wife and I would change our situation to move to something better. However, I'm not sure how healthy it is to dwell on the 10% negative to the exclusion of the 90% positive (whatever the numbers are).
All in all I think the academic life is pretty damn sweet, and it strikes a good balance (for me at least). The downsides of academia are:
(1) the grading
(2) you can never shut it off (I come up with ideas for articles at the strangest times)
(3) it is not portable (i.e., you cannot just pick a city and move there).
Clearly you are dealing with the #3 blues. I remember from an earlier thread that you were on the market this year. It is still early, so maybe something will work out. St. Louis might not be ideal, but if you can get an academic job in SLC, things will be very different.
Best of luck. I feel your pain; but there may well be ways to rearrange your current situation without tossing it all. Then again (unhelpfully) maybe tossing it all is right for you. Just be sure to try to avoid jumping out of the frying pan into some unanticipated fire.
Brian
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Dec 28, 2006 - 10:53pm PT
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Ksolem,
" I think it is better to be walking toward, not away..."
NICE! I also spent much of my 20's working and traveling around the world. I'd often try to figure out if I was running toward something or running away from something.
There is an important difference here.
Brian
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Dec 28, 2006 - 11:00pm PT
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Crimple,
JFDI ... Just Fricking Do It.
I left a great career for climbing, travelling and guiding. Ablout 8 years ago went back to school, finished my degree and got back into the work force. I could never do the cooporate thing again with two weeks holiday etc, so I choose govenment work instead so I can work a 4 day work week and have lots of time off relatively speaking. I work in the network computer field.
Don't ever let an opportunity like this vanish. It will be easier now than it will be in 10 years time. People think there is time for stuff like this later in life but there isn't and it gets a lot harder as you get a little older.
Put Arapalies on your must do hit list. March and April and May are great as well as September and October. While you're there make sure you watch an Aussie Rules Game!
There is plenty of time later on in life to work.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dec 28, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Crimp...my wife and I lived in a VW bus for a 5 months in the Santa Fe area when we first got married. A wonderful time.
We also sold everything in 1980 and left with our four year old son and our lab for a 6 month climbing/touring trip. A wonder time.
There been a lot more things that we done.
I don't think we ever played by the "rules" and our life has been quite full.
Do it!!!!
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 29, 2006 - 12:05am PT
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not sure what your academic field is, but is independent consulting a possibility? Its a partial 'chucking of it all' (unless you get caught up in it), but might let you maintain professional connections (though not neccesarily academic, Im thinking if your field has an applied angle) while freeing up time. Im finishing a PhD program right now, but the tenure shuffle holds no appeal. Fortunately I have a well established overseas consulting career and some friends and I are (as a consulting group) aiming to pursue a 4-5 month a year commitment to consulting work and the rest for family and fun. Downside is the work is on the the other side of the world, but there are aspects I like about that too.
Im sypathize with the idea that anything less than tenured faculty is viewed as a failure in academia - but keep in mind whose viewing that as a failure (other tenured faculty!). My critical problem with academia is my unwillingness to go where a job opens up in my specialty (e.g. the very situation you find yourself in). So I find your post somehow validating of my own fears. Someone said it earlier....so difficult not to be sucked in to traditional measures of success, yet so clear that those traditional measures have made so many of our peers utterly miserable
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 29, 2006 - 12:33am PT
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"Go not to the Elves (SuperTopians) for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." - paraphrasing J.R.R. Tolkien
We are fortunate to live in a time and place that allows us these kinds of choices. Although a choice always implies one (or more) that isn't taken.
In the present-day U.S. it helps a lot to be white, in good health, reasonably young, with a university education, without significant debt, English speaking, without a criminal or addictions record, and able to move. Sad but true, and for you a big help. In at least some places, being female is a bonus in the job market - places likely to be of more interest to you. (Often with higher real estate prices than St. Louis.)
Without much more information on your situation, I can't say much. To me, a key question is whether others are dependent on your continuing as you are - family (aging parents?), other relatives, birds, friends. That would make the equation more complicated.
Once you step off the tenure track, it may be hard to get back on. Particularly in fields such as yours, where the demand may not be all that great. So you have to consider what other things (realistically) you could and would want to/like to do, and how they could combined with a climbing/travelling lifestyle. They may well involve lower income, for a time or always. They may not have the intellectual stimulation that a university environment offers. Trade offs, eh?
Health insurance may be an issue for any significant absence from the work force. A thorough check up seems indicated, before making any decision, just in case there's some concern.
The sabbatical suggestion sounded good, if possible.
My guess is that whatever you do (if anything), it'll work out, perhaps in unexpected ways. It'll be different than your current lifestyle, in some ways better, in some ways worse. Such decisions get harder as time goes on, and real and imagined strings multiply. And, as Werner noted, it's a lot easier to live as a dirt bag at 20 than at 40 or 50.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Dec 29, 2006 - 08:29am PT
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Plenty of places that need teachers closer to better climbing venues.
I'd consider finding a teaching job [you're a teacher, right?] near JT, or the valley, or western NC, or New Paltz, or any of a hundered areas that are not St. Louis.
You can still dirtbag on weekends. That kept me 'in-touch' through my 20's. I used to sleep in the back of my 1988 4-runner with a mountain bike strapped to the [in]side, a surfboard strapped to the ceiling, my climbing gear in a haulbag in the back, and all of my camping gear in a box. When I sold the vehicle at 150k miles, the fold down back seats looked brand new because they were very rarely ever put upright.
Clients always got a kick out of my ride.
And if that plan doesn't fill the void, chuck it all and live as one with the dirt.
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