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John M
climber
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Jan 26, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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Ultimately it is a selfish pursuit done for our own pleasure that does not elevate the human condition one bit.
I believe that there is worth in challenging the human spirit and showing what is possible. Inspiration is worthwhile.
I may never stand on the top of some mountains, but I enjoy hearing the tales of those who have and find inspiration to face some of the challenges that I have.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 26, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
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This, my fine furry friends, is why I go bouldering in the backcountry.
C ya!
edit:
Woot woot!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 26, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
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Despite what you say your posts are loaded with sanctimonious judgment from the comfort of home, and I have no place for it.
Yet, you feel comfortable to be even more sanctimonious regarding me personally. What have you done, while you accuse me from the comfort of your own couch?
Unlike you (quite obviously), I have repeatedly and spanning decades put my life on the line for the climbing perspectives I opine here. And I still climb at a very high level; I'm in the middle of a project right now that probably less than 100 people on earth would tangle with. So, I'm far from "on my couch" in what I'm saying.
By stark contrast, it is you who pontificates from the "couch" of "safety," while calling "climbing" what is nothing more than the intentional dumbing down of EXISTING routes for convenience sake.
I have NO place for it.
Since we're BOTH being "sanctimonious," at least I put my life where my mouth is. The rest is weak sauce.
IMO
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 26, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
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It should be removed and the route returned to FA condition.
That's precisely what I said upthread. But apparently that wasn't good enough... until you said it.
I seriously don't give a rip about these "styles" people talk about. Bolt or don't bolt. Piton or not. I don't care.
As long as you're not fundamentally altering EXISTING routes to dumb them down to your level.
I decry a whole thread devoted to slathering "badass" on a BAIL that in the process dumbed down an existing route. That's weak sauce, not "badass."
Even now, the author of the thread in question (that I have not referenced or used names) could go back and make this right. "Confessing your sins" doesn't get it done.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 26, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
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Thank you for sharing the link. Got a chuckle out of some of the author's comments.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 26, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
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I am not one to TELL SOMEONE ELSE they should die for my ideals for entertainment particularly ones as worthless as bolting ethics.
For being an MD, you seem to have shockingly bad reading comprehension. Seriously.
I have never said he should have given his life for some "worthless" ideal. He had MANY options that would not have required any more risk than he was already in. One obvious thing he could have done was rap down from the next-highest anchor and removed/patched the bolt. There were many other options as well. I said far upthread that he should have gone back (by some means) to remove/patch the bolt. End of story.
Why you insist on putting words in my mouth is beyond me. I'm not asking the guy to die, and it's very dubious (given the pics he showed) that he was in really significant risk anyway.
This was a chicken-bolt, plain and simple, and he left it there and "purged his soul" to his own satisfaction by "confessing his sins." But, since we're in that "sin" mindset, I don't see a whit of "penance," a la: inconvenience himself to remove the bolt and restore the route to its previous condition.
I just hate to see existing routes drilled down to the lowest common denominator. Nothing more. If you have me saying more than that, then you're just makin' stuff up.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 26, 2017 - 08:55pm PT
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Oh snap! Did you just call Jenkins Grossman?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 26, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
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it would sound like the same nasty slander I defended you from in numerous conversations.
Well, there's a bit of confusion there.
First, I'm talking about general principles and using a particular thread (that I have not named) as a sort of "thought experiment." So, I can't be "slandering" because I'm not calling anybody out in particular. I'm systematically using the incident as an exemplar of a trend rather than "picking on" anybody in particular. Note that I have not even posted on that thread, and I have not linked to it. I'm thinking in general terms.
Second, the thread I have in mind is one in which the author himself talks about what he did, and he does so in a great deal of detail. So, unless he is "slandering" himself, then I feel like I'm in good company to use his own words to talk about what he himself says he did. Again, as a thought-experiment.
Third, the "nasty slander" I got was indeed defamation, as I spent decades denying the things I was accused of by people who had never done the route. If you can conflate that series of events with me talking about what a guy has himself said he did, then, well, as I said, there's some serious confusion going on. And, again, whether "he" did what "he" says "he" did or not is irrelevant for my purposes. I care about the principle exemplified by what "he" says "he" did (whoever "he" is).
Look, the deal is simple, so please stop trying to turn it into all sorts of unrelated subjects. A guy flatly states that he put in a chicken-bolt on an existing route. He flatly states that he doesn't feel good about it, even calls it a "sin". The same guy bails without fixing the issue, although he had various ways he could have fixed it.
When anybody does such a thing (thought of as a general principle), I think it's unconscionable, because I believe it guts the basis of what climbing even is. All the guy (or anybody like him) would have had to do was just fix the problem (and he himself thought of it as a problem). If somebody recognizes that they've done something that's a problem, and they just can't be bothered to fix it, then, yes, I think it's weak sauce.
Don't turn this into something it's not or spin it around onto unrelated subjects. This is very simple, and I have to believe that even you don't think that what the guy did is acceptable.
Or do you?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jan 26, 2017 - 11:22pm PT
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Holy spray!!!
Unlike you (quite obviously), I have repeatedly and spanning decades put my life on the line for the climbing perspectives I opine here. And I still climb at a very high level; I'm in the middle of a project right now that probably less than 100 people on earth would tangle with. So, I'm far from "on my couch" in what I'm saying.
big wall climbing is climbing
Jenkins you're a classic for sure.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jan 27, 2017 - 05:02am PT
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I'm in the middle of a project right now that probably less than 100 people on earth would tangle with.
Sculpting a bust of yourself so big that you have to rap in and down aid under the chin to work the neck?
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Josh Holmes
Trad climber
UT
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Jan 27, 2017 - 06:20am PT
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Anyone else upset by the epoxy covered bolts on top of Five and Dime?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jan 27, 2017 - 07:48am PT
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Madbolter said:
The bar of "badass" has dropped considerably.
Maybe. But it's certainly far from gone. For your enjoyment and stoke: Ladies be badass these days.
http://eveningsends.com/day-sent-skinny-love/
Climb on.
BAd
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Jan 27, 2017 - 08:45am PT
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pretty good at finding hotdogs and pictures of umbrellas too
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 27, 2017 - 11:34am PT
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Lots of beating around the bush here, but the fact remains: Retro-bolters are a plague. And the particular case under consideration is even more pathetic, as this was "unintentional" and could easily have been made right.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
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Please explain what "climbing is about"
Climbing is to:
Climb out of the illusionary material energies back to one's true nature.
That is all it is ......
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jstan
climber
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Jan 27, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
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Using cholla as toilet paper. By definition, that's badass.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jan 27, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
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I think that what the guy did to save his own skin is perfectly acceptable.
I think you are being intentionally obtuse, because you just like to fight.
You insist on conflating the PLACING of the bolt with the LEAVING of the bolt.
I'm not arguing about the PLACING of the bolt, as long has he then did not LEAVE the bolt. He could almost trivially have removed the bolt after he chickened out and placed it. The fact that he did not do so is what made his act a RETRO-bolt.
Are we straight now?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Jan 27, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
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Using cholla as toilet paper. By definition, that's badass.
...or would directly lead to one.
Curt
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jan 27, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
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From the 3 year-old article:
Today most new routes, whether bolted or gear-protected, are established top down.
The context of the quote would lead the reader to believe this is the case in Yosemite. So, a case of alternative facts or just literary laziness?
To get the real facts we need to consult Stanford Professor Clint Cummins...
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