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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 11, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
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The freedom for me to do it my way, is almost as important to me, as your freedom is, for you to be able to do it your way.
What ever way you get after it, what ever it takes to make it safer, whatever blows your hair back.
I still pound my way up on old pins standing in slings, cleaning with a pry bar and wire brush.
Then I hope to find a climber to go free the pitch on sight ground up.
I can't claim an onsight of a climb I've scratched out of the matrix,
I've seen it and so know what's coming up.
Climbs feel like one thing to the developer then can feel like one grade higher, or lower to an objective climber
For the last decade I've used all the tricks; climbed up, gone around rapped down. and tried the moves on GriGri top rope.
Also as others have said; I try hard not to die while doing it.
I thank my god, Kcor,( KoGaR ), when the cliff let's me leave in one piece.
As one round pucker, 'round here is want to say; this stuff is serious, loco's only braj.....
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Oct 11, 2016 - 06:45pm PT
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Jeremy nails it imo.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 11, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
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Lots of great advice and words of wisdom on this thread. In this game, there is room for all kinds of style variances I believe. Ground up on stance works well in Yosemite and places where the routes are not too steep unless they are cracks.
*Yet how many routes did JB put up in Rifle, or Ten Sleep?
*How many routes in those 2 spots were led ground up free with no weight on bolt placements by others?
*In places where "ethically pure" no weigh on placements ground up were done, how many routes are total sh#t jobs that no one climbs and even the first ascentionist(s) refuses to try it again it sucks so bad?
Whats the point of that? Finished "product" matters in my view. As does style.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2016 - 10:25pm PT
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Tut, over bolting is fine, as long as it never gets into a guidebook or goes online. Not a prescriptive statement, just fact.
Couch, I think we've done that conversation on other threads, but it's worth kicking around. It isn't just the finished product that matters, else there's no reason to go GU at all. It's both process and product. Very subjective in experience of process, but more objective in result produced clips. Gnome's point about freedom is worth calling in here. It's one of the reasons we do this silly game; so as to write routes. Routes tell a story. Though it does seem to be the case that the GU routes have the best experience and best story about their product, even if others think the clips suck, its run out, etc.
I did some top down lines recently. Given their proximity to a trail and other crags I suspect they'll see some traffic so I was inclined to identify the best clipping positions. So I spent multiple hours rehearsing out the moves and the optimal clip positions, including trying to accommodate shorter reaches, and I still didn't get it exactly right on one line.
Then even more recently was going ground up on some other lines, I still wasn't sure where the optimum line needed to be even though constrained by the endurance of da feet.
I do see a lot of folks forcing themselves to move well above the last bolt, even when close to the ground on GU ethical approaches. That seems misplaced close to the ground based on a 'minimize bolts at all costs' rule/approach. If going GU, not criticizing so much as observing the pattern regularly, so respect in any case because leader prerogative rules.
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 12, 2016 - 06:05am PT
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^^Right on Munge^^ I thought that the lambasting that Sean Jones and Doug Robinson got here on Supertopo for finishing "Growing up" (did I get that right) via top down on Half Dome was way too much. I think we need to reserve that kind of vitriol for folks who are killing babies.....like killing them slowly and horribly. Lots and lots of babies.
I think their mistake was being honest about it on a open forum. Top down to finish it was a good thing in this instance. I understand that the valley has traditions and history that dictates it should be other. I just did that top down thing on a new route for the same reason. To see if or where a top out would or could be. But I'm not gonna tell anyone about it.
?!! Opps. Crap, forget that last part.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Oct 12, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
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Calvinism!
The standard is that if you're the first ascender, you set the standard. If you're the second through nth ascender, you follow it. We invented this world - you just live in it! :-)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 12, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
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Calvinism!
I thought I could define Calvinism as "Some lives matter."
More seriously, I can't argue that climbing style and ethics has the same importance, or justifies the same vitriol, as murder or the like, but then what seemed like the extraordinary size of the "Growing Up" thread pales in comparison to that of the political threads, so maybe we agree.
John
Edit: There is plenty of rock to climb. Don't change the character of the existing routes, please!
Truth!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 12, 2016 - 04:23pm PT
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^^Right on Munge^^ I thought that the lambasting that Sean Jones and Doug Robinson got here on Supertopo for finishing "Growing up" (did I get that right) via top down on Half Dome was way too much. I think we need to reserve that kind of vitriol for folks who are killing babies.....like killing them slowly and horribly. Lots and lots of babies.
+1
With all the credibility those two have and everything they know about new routing, if they decided something was better, I personally respect it. Their route, their work, their adventure.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
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The concept of duty could be implied by the location. As it most assuredly is at Pinnacles. No one cares about Pinns hardly anyone goes there, and same for the back of Half Dome. Who else is going up there? Hardly no one.
Yet, there is a clear interest in preserving those areas for the future. Or perhaps no one.
There's lots of little Mungie crags to go TD. But there is only one HD. Shouldn't we preserve that for the possibilities of the future going ground up?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 12, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
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how many routes are total sh#t jobs that no one climbs and even the first ascentionist(s) refuses to try it again it sucks so bad?
It's a matter of perspective. B-Y could just as easily qualify under that rubric.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Oct 12, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
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"*Yet how many routes did JB put up in Rifle, or Ten Sleep?
*How many routes in those 2 spots were led ground up free with no weight on bolt placements by others?"
How many of those routes are a rope-length or less? And could have been toproped, requiring zero bolts?
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