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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 23, 2006 - 07:24pm PT
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I will agree with your statement of " change is best from within" 100%, the only problem is the regimes are so brutal that with few exceptions the Islamic religion has changed little in 700 years. The Taliban took them all the way back to 1400 AD. Only a severe disruption of their societies can create the catalyst for change.
Seems to be working well so far:
1) iraq is now a nation awash in sectarian violence and will almost certainly end up a shi'ite controlled nation (minus the kurdish north) with a religious and political structure similar to Iran's. Perviously, it was ruled by an evil bastard (who we helped retain power over the decades), but there was no theocracy in palce.
2) Afghanistan is reverting more and more to the state it was in pre-9/11. Dollars to donuts Mullah Omar will be back in charge in less than 5 years. The locals hate the Taliban, but they hate the Warlords we placed back into power more.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 23, 2006 - 07:47pm PT
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The Moon is Down;
Is that the one with the line, "The flys have captured the flypaper?" maybe that was 'A bell for Adano.'
"Fifty years ago, was it like this, too?"
By my reckoning the first 'Vietnam' of the 20th century was the Russia/Japan war,'04/5. The second one was maybe vietnam. Fortunatley now, in the 21st century we are way beyond that sort of thing.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Oct 23, 2006 - 08:06pm PT
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"However, to me "hero" means taking a risk when easier choices are available (snip)"
I'm with you on that.
"It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers."
Seems risky...
edit to add:
Good Christ man, don't sink to level of belittling a soldier (or anyone, really) because he disagrees with your political views.
And the "fat-chickenhawk-ass" comments aren't helping either.
I honestly wish we could have some civil discourse instead of all the name/blame/games we always seem to endure.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 23, 2006 - 08:58pm PT
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And the only solution to your forecast is to send an overwhelming US troop deployment to bring the groups to their knees.
You really just don't get it. Even if there was some way for Shrub to admit he made *gasp* a mistake, fire Rumsfeld and send in every troop we've got, it still wouldn't work. You can not impose democracy with violence unless there's a huge majority of the population that is crying out for it. Not some folks who think it'd be nice. Currently, there is no large group of people in Iraq crying out for democracy. What there are are huge numbers of people crying out not to have their arms and legs blwon off and their families killed. The longer we stay there, the worse it gets. We could have a million troops there, and it wouldn't matter. We would be universally despised as invaders. It has never been otherwise.
And that's all if the leadership was actually willing to admit mistakes and do it right, as opposed to implementing the obviously flawed strategies of the idealogues who planned this mess years and years ago.
Again, just to keep it simple, the more military forces you send in there, the more the population will resent and thus support those fighting against the US.
I know it's hard to believe, but you can't fix this situation by throwing more troops, bombs, guns, and planes at it. It actually requires, planning, intelligence, diplomacy, and respect the sovereignty of the nation. All five of which, the current leadership has been totally lacking in. McCain wouldn't be any better because he's sold his soul and now he owes all the same people.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Oct 23, 2006 - 09:31pm PT
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good article, yet
SOMEHOW, some people don't get it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 23, 2006 - 10:04pm PT
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Fatrad, your own definition is, "...to me "hero" means taking a risk when easier choices are available."
This is a fine definition and it is real shame that you are now trying to "cut and run" from your own definition.
Kevin Tillman left his position with the Anaheim Angels to join the military shortly after 9/11. Many in the military join, in part, for the educational and career opportunities. That is why the rank and file is disproportionately made up by the least advantaged in society--people who do not have "easier choices." For example, Jessica Lynch joined the army after failing to get a job at Walmart.
Kevin Tillman had "easier choices" available but instead chose a riskier, less profitable choice. He joined the Rangers in time of war. This virtually guaranteed that he would be on the front lines and is heroic by almost any measure, including your own definition.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 23, 2006 - 10:18pm PT
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Fatrad, writes, "Am I a "hero" for having been shot at in So. Central LA? I don't think so. I was just sitting in the car and lucky not to get hit."
Fatrad, maybe, not for just having been shot at but rather for volunteering to serve in South Central, if it was a sacrifice. Meaning that there were easier, more profitable, or more career-enhancing assignments that were yours for the asking and you went with South Central. If you were there just because it was crap you had to put up with to launch your career, then maybe not.
And not to diminish the sacrifices and risks taken by our peace officers on the domestic "front line", but I'd estimate that serving as a Ranger these days is probably about a 100 times riskier with much longer hours and worse pay. I'll leave it for someone else to go ahead and look at the stats and do the math.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 23, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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Pretty remarkable family. Pat Tillman left an NFL career with the Arizona Cardinals (and a $3.6 million contract) to join the Army Rangers. He was killed by friendly fire in April, 2004, tho the Army took over a month to disclose that it was not enemy fire that killed him (and only after it was discovered independently), and that pissed a lot of people off.
Kevin Tillman gave up a professional baseball career when he joined the army at the same time as his brother in 2002.
Also, here's where the "original" of the article is: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
Not sure if that's the true original location it was posted or not.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 25, 2006 - 01:40pm PT
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One interesting aspect of this story is how little press it gets in mainstream media. Especially compared to something like the fake story of the fake swiftboaters against Kerry. Whatever happened to the left-wing media?
Somehow the liberal media isn't.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 25, 2006 - 04:52pm PT
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Fattrad, of course it got coverage in the Bay Area, we have been, for the most part, a liberal and open-minded populace and the media understands that and caters to it.
But what about the more close-minded and conservative parts of the country, have they heard this story?
Hmmmm
Liberal media, in America? Laughing my fecking ass off at that one.
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dougs510
Social climber
down south
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Oct 25, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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Maculated,
interesting thought. i'm going to have to get the book and read it. never thought of it that way.
D
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