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Frozenwaterfalls
Ice climber
California
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I learned from a club that taught belaying with inanimate objects before we were allowed to risk dropping people. We had to be able to hold falls using an ATC both on the dominant and other hand as well as hip belays with both the dominant and other hand. We had a big 100 lb weight on a pull system that we practiced belaying as someone else raised it and then at a random time it was released and we had to catch it before it landed in a giant puddle of slushy mud. So there was incentive to not screw up even though no person was going to hit the deck :). I am sure something like this can be set up in a tree or off a tower or somesuch. But I do agree that with the modern really skinny ropes (9.5-9.7 single ropes), I really do have to be extra attentive and work hard to lock off a leader fall even with a Jaws style ATC.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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In this day and age they should not even sell atc style belay devises without the jaws.
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Hoser
climber
vancouver
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My question now is, what can be done to avoid belayer boredom to instill more attentiveness and more safety into this rather dangerous sport? All thoughts on this subject are welcome.
When my dad made me come sailing I was bored to tears...how many times did that boom smack me...why
cause I absolutely hate sailing.
life jackets, vests and tethers didnt do much for that either...maybe its time to ask him how much fun he is having...
Glad it was an easy lesson for both of you
take it easy
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couchmaster
climber
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I think you answered it, more training. It's on you to head that direction. "My question now is, what can be done to avoid belayer boredom to instill more attentiveness and more safety into this rather dangerous sport? All thoughts on this subject are welcome."
I don't know if it is just boredom. We practiced locking off in the house and I emphasized how critical this was, in fact, I repeated again and again that it was THE most important aspect of climbing, more important than racking up big numbers blah blah blah old people noise. I then took my kid out in front of the house and tied him off to the telephone pole all geared up with an ATC and rope. As I walked towards him I yelled falling as I took off running, tied off to the other end. 5 or 6 times of getting yanked around and he was catching on. The ATC can and should be locked off anytime a climber is pausing.
Several sessions of that and when we went out later to the bouldering wall the first time, he had trained quite a few times catching me on sidewalk "falls" catching with both hands with me coming and going. Jumping off a wall then became easier for me, and I started by saying "falling" and jumping off from @ 8-10 feet up - later I'd test him at odd times by randomly popping off without a word. Only then was he allowed to belay me, or anyone, climbing real stuff. A lot of training, multiple days and multiple sessions. The real joy is that he has now later trained a few of his own belayers who were inadequate on how to do it right when I wasn't around. So as the result of all that he's safer when I'm not there.
Furthermore, giving your lad the benefit of the doubt, you may consider if you have equipped him improperly in addition to training him poorly (not saying either is true, but you should consider it). You don't say anything about his setup so maybe you don't think it's important. Use of 2 matching biners will increase holding power for every ATC, and as Mike M stated up thread, light rope is worse than a big old fuzzy phat 11 mil. Also, each ATC style device has differing friction properties. You don't state what you handed him, indicating that you may not have even considered that factor. I carry Bugettes for myself and my partners when using my Beal 9.1 skinny line, and keep them clipped onto the rope bag so that if the rope goes out, so does the belay devices. Lastly, use of gloves for ropeburns should be evaluated. Ask Rgold about that, he'll give a full and interesting treatises regarding it's importance.
Glad things worked out for you, training, practice, and more practice is the answer. Good luck and heal up!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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The suggestion to use fat older rope a device that locks up, gri gri, and artificial falling practice with terse short
"Watch Me" & "take" commands
are all going to be steps to help while maturity and understanding of the game come through increased experience.
The advent of the fast skinny ropes was once the domain of Expert Only climbing partners.
If one is going to teach, a person who iis very close like a child or niece it can be hard to set the appropriate tone, the serious talk can be a real damper on the good, fun vibe of the day.but it must be made clear that it is basic that the attention of the climbers is focused on the belay at all times.
When a spacey zone over takes a Less exprianced belayer, it is often apparent.
Commands are slow to be responded to and slack can form in the system.
The pact between climbers has been waterd down by the less consequential indoor practice that breeds confidence, that may be misplaced.
To be sure it is hard to evaluate a teens 'Here ness' and gaining the knowledge that the drift is a fog that can be impenetrable, while one is on lead is scary. yanking and such is often the only option.
As a trick that I was ridiculed for using, take low test kite string, clip it to a location that is in front and un ignorable(no not his piercing). in the event that the attention span is short or drifting ,whatever, the string can be tugged. This was a need with dyslexic teenagers as was a non social approach, climbing at a area where there was a lack of distractions also helped.
I am not a Martial and weak sauce at trying to be a hardasz but I insist on an attentive belay.
I am kind of a fan of 'Paying' an objective person to teach a ground school and do a two pitch route,
as a way of evaluating my daughters accumulated skills at the start of every outdoor((no ice))
season. My son is a complete disaster.
He has been climbing from the age of one. Now, at ten, is still immature and can not be trusted to be all in as a belayer.
I hope that the two of you are good with the lesson and am glad that the bump and grind was not worse.
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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My feet hit first and my rear hit my heels as I rolled backward on
Glad your ok.
Also in my personal opinion and from experience this is really where a helmet can be make or break, your feet hit then you roll/fall backwards from the force typically onto your head. If there's something sharp or hard during this scenario your old noggin hat will come in mighty handy...or "heady".
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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It's developmental....attention spans aren't, and never will be, great at that age. If we had a teenager (boys in particular) on a climb when I guided for Exum, we put him at the end so he only had to climb and daydreaming, nose picking and sessions of pocketball didn't create dangerous situations.
What a cop out.
Teenage boys climb about as hard as anyone in the world, and they often manage to do it climbing with . . . other teenage boys.
Glad you figured out a system to get up the Grand Teton (I presume) without killing anyone, but I gotta say, seeing the guiding operation there was about the biggest shitshow I've seen in my climbing life. I grudgingly concede that they've figured out something that sort of works, as in getting people to the top without many deaths, but participating in such a ridiculous activity may have stunted your perception of what various people are capable of given appropriate training (something that was obviously lacking from Exum).
I wouldn't dispute that teenagers (maybe especially boys) may need a little more or different training and supervision that some other groups, but implying that that can't climb (including belaying) safely is ridiculously and obviously wrong.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Blah blah blah sounds about right.
I did paint with too broad of a brush...lot's of 15 year olds are just fine and most climb better than me but it's a tough age and they aren't always in the present.
blah blah blah
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
Hopefully, that is true for both of you.
I don't think it is helpful for folks to attribute youth and developmental issues to the problem.
I've seen very experienced climbers do things that they should be dead for, and I'll admit I almost killed myself once, and I thought I was being carefull. If you pay attention, everybody has an "almost" story. Most of them don't invole youth.
Happy climbing.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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With someone new, inexperienced, or unproven as a catcher,
you should consider yourself soloing.
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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Glad you are ok...and I would guess (now) your son knows what it's like to stop a fall. A little more instruction and I bet/assume it will never happen again.
My daughter has been climbing since 5yo. I didn't trust her to belay...umm ever...even today not sure and she is 23 yo. Probably she suffers from the thing you mentioned above - dad's are invincible.
Anyways, one day she was with me so we were using a Cinch for TRs. I explained how it worked, showed her how it worked and then set her up. I was about half way up the climb when I looked down to the rope laying on the ground in front of her, with her hand tightly holding the brake end of the rope.
I yelled down, "Dude pull the rope through the device now!". She replied "oh that's what you meant". I couldn't believe it...she was 16 yo.
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Andy Fielding
Trad climber
UK
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Jay good to hear you survived this encounter with gravity. Perhaps someone has asked already (I didn't read every post above) but does your son actually want to climb? Is he bored because he'd rather be off with his friends/chasing girls/drinking beer? I think my son was a similar age when the climbing gym manager pointed out he wasn't belaying me properly. He wanted to chase girls and hasn't belayed or climbed with me since. Time moves on and I know my son found other interests in life. I didn't stop him doing what he wanted to do.
Hope your recovery isn't too long.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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An ATC requires a correct reaction when the leader falls (the braking hand moves down).
That reaction needs to be trained in.
The GriGri is more forgiving, as no reaction is needed.
This assumes the rope is properly threaded through the GriGri.
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WBraun
climber
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Everywhere I go I see everyone using this stupid ATC type device.
The GriGri is so easy to use and locks up when you need it to.
People think the grigri is too heavy that's why they don't want to use it.
Pussies.
It don't weigh sh!t compared to all those cams people hang on their harnesses.
They have so much gear on their harnesses I wonder how they even get off the ground to begin with .....
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Gene Pool
Trad climber
A trailer park in Santa Cruz
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Glad you are ok! Thanks for sharing too.
A friend uses the Mammut Smart belay device and after using it a few times, I have to say I am really impressed. It looks strange and gimmicky but I have changed my mind. I am not an expert at it as I have not bought one, but it functions exactly like an ATC except that it locks up without a brake hand.
It would be great for rappelling a route and cleaning stuck gear (or untangling the rope below you) where having hands free is helpful. Not sure if I would back it up once it is locked up, but the locking functions appears at first use very robust. I am pretty sure you would need identical rope diameters if you were using two ropes and expected the locking function to work (doubles or two similar ropes).
Mostly, this story is a good reminder to focus on belaying...when belaying. It is easy to get distracted. No device replaces the need to remind ourselves that there are severe consequences to messing up in our sport, but when situations call for it, using technology can help increase the safety of a situation.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Pussies.
If someone says something stupid in the forest and nobody listens...did they still say it?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Don't text and belay. Body belays are the best.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
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body belay
Yep, and running through one carabiner somewhere on your harness.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA (stuck in Jersey)
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Man Jay, the first thing that came to mind when I read your post was my C-6/C-7 disc that protruded into my spinal chord by 50%! Dude, I don't know what your insurance coverage is like, but I'd recommend getting a precautionary post fall check-up! That force had to go somewhere and I hope your spine isn't a time bomb waiting to go off, or anything else for that matter! You were double + the height to be entered into the EMS Trauma System no matter if you "walk away from it" or not!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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This is perhaps another discussion, and I know I'll get my butt flamed from here to kingdom come, but I have a lot of reservations about climbing with kids period. It is of course common now, in spite of what I think of as some gnarly moral issues about involving minors in risky activities when they really have no ability to judge the nature of those risks and no legal or developmental ability to consent to taking them.
I'm not suggesting some kind of blanket prohibition. (All the gyms would go out of business.) But I do think that putting kids in charge of life and death procedures like belaying without very close supervision is asking for trouble. Add to this a casualness about belaying that absolutely boggles the mind of those of us who learned by actually holding practice falls of some severity and the only mystery is why there aren't a lot more accidents.
And when those accidents happen, the kid gets blamed for not being at a developmental stage they haven't reached yet. What we would call "inattention" in an adult may just be a kid being a kid, and expecting "attention" from a child in circumstances that have potentially fatal outcomes, especially when they may never have practiced or experienced any of the severe aspects of the procedure they are entrusted with, strikes me as unrealistic, possibly fatally unrealistic.
Just before the flame-throwers are turned up to incinerate, I'm often told, "but my kid is different, he/she is mature beyond their years." I'm not sure that developmental research supports this, but maybe so. Too bad if you're wrong though.
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