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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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I think Forest is asking the right question. It doesn't make any sense for a cyclist to be using steroids. Something doesn't add up.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2006 - 03:55pm PT
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Interesting links:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a2aB.bQumftE&refer=home
" Testosterone ``increases the cross-sectional areas of the muscle and the size of the muscle fibers,'' said Timothy Foster, a Boston University School of Medicine professor of orthopedic surgery and sports medicine, in a phone interview today. ``It's not something that happens overnight.''
`Short-Term'
``Testosterone doesn't help in the short term,'' agreed Steven Ungerleider, the Anti-Doping Association consultant, in a telephone interview today from Eugene, Oregon. ``None of the synthetic derivatives of testosterone would help in the short term, you have to go on long-term cycles involving a strict regimen.'' "
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http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid-profiles/testosterone.htm
Interesting link to the Androderm patch. It seems to ramp up in efficacy over a 24 hour period. Same patch that the guy in www.velonews.com talks about.
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http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/5822020
"Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, said Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine. But if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected.
"So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up.""
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2006 - 08:54pm PT
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I've done steroids..didn't lie about it either...
radical, are you on steroids now?
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WBraun
climber
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Yes we are all cheaters.
The conditioned souls, they commit mistake, they are illusioned, they cheat, and their senses are imperfect.
Big cheaters or little cheaters still we are.
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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1) I love seeing people's extreme jealousy of Lance Armstrong. They just can't stand the idea of an elite athlete being as gifted as they are. Add to that the fact that Lance has had to face a lot of adversity in his life, and people are really going to hate on him.
It's especially bad in Europe, where cycling has a good bit larger following than here in the states.
2) Radical, are you crazy? Please do tell exactly what you're basing a lot of these...uh..."interesting" claims on?
EDIT:
A few other things:
I do have to agree with radical that performance enhancing substances are far more widespread in professional sports than most people realize.
The question of course becomes whether or not it's wrong to supplement at all, or only if it's against a particular organization's rules of competition.
If cyclists are going to cheat, they'll just blood dope, which basically means they have blood drawn weeks in advance and re-inject it just before the event in order to raise their red blood cell count and thus their VO2MAX. This is basically totally undetectable unless your doctor's an idiot and gets caught with a bunch of bags of blood a la Ullrich and Basso. Of course, this horrible on your circulatory system, but that's besides the point.
Only problem is, blood doping typically doesn't work. People have such a poor understanding of gas and oxygen exchange these days. RBC count is only one link in a very long chain, and won't do you much good unless the rest of the system is equivalently boosted.
Edit #2:
Jesus there's a lot to suss out here. Ok:
Regarding testosterone having immediate or long term effects:
Immediate effects are possible, but they likely won't be lasting. The body regulates hormones just like anything else in an attempt to maintain a (somewhat malleable, as the need arises) homeostasis.
The short term effects of hormones tend to be mood changes more than anything else (e.g. your wife during "that time of the month"), and certainly becoming more aggressive might help a cyclist's performance, but it's not giving him any extra physiological advantage. It's just removing a mental block.
Of course, this is assuming absorption, which may or may not occur for a variety of reasons.
Long term effects tend to be more physiological - testosterone spurs the anabolic processes of the body, so it's typically going to help over time to develop muscle mass provided a proper training regimen and diet are maintained (and don't overlook the importance of adequate rest, although the purpose of anabolics is typically to minimize this aspect).
Summary:
Short Term: Mostly mental.
Long Term: Mental and Physiological
Take Home Message: Don't go mucking with your hormones. There's a lot of potential damage and relatively little potential for gain.
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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Sorry, double post.
Forum is taking a dump, apparently.
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Radical...I still say he is clean. Looking forward to Saturday and the results of the test.
The french hate the fact that americans (road) are the best cyclists in the world.
Talking with Chris Carmichael (Lance's Coach) he told me ( I guided him one day) that Lance just works way harder than everyone else.
He is also extremely gifted cyclist.
Plain and simple!
I think Landis is cut from the same mold.
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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Eh pretty much all of Europe has been jealous of Lance (but it's more of a sideshow to the f*ck America bandwagon truth be told) for the past...I dunno...seven years.
Learn a bit about the man. He hasn't been linked to performance enhancing substances throughout his tour domination. His body is almost built to cycle. He's in obscenely good aerobic condition which all but REQUIRES the appropriate genetics to achieve.
Elite athletes, for the most part, are born, not made. Many times on top of their naturally achievable ability, they'll ad illicit aids.
I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe Armstrong has cheated in any way. In fact, most of the investigations into that idea just seem to bolster the case that he isn't. It's quite amusing.
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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Jak wrote: I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe Armstrong has cheated in any way. In fact, most of the investigations into that idea just seem to bolster the case that he isn't. It's quite amusing.
Lance was the most tested rider in the pro tour. Clean as whistle!!
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john hansen
climber
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Maybe we should test Dean, Steph , Tommy ,Beth, Timmy ect.... JUST KIDDING!!!
Hell ,lets test every one.
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bob d'antonio
climber
boulder, co
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radical wrote: There are all kinds of subtle ways to cheat. He has been linked to EPO and lord knows what he has done to himself to get an edge.
Prove it!
What he has done is train harder than anyone for that race, he can endure more pain than other riders and his mind is like like a steel trap...when he put his mind to something. He is not going fail. Lance has forever changed the way people train for the Tour.
Radical wrote: We all can be 100 percent sure about Landis now however.
No we can't. Let see what happens in the future.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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One thing to keep in mind is that while there may be synthetic testosterone in Floyd Landis, there has been no information as to how much of the testosterone in Landis was of synthetic origin. One possible scenario is that there was a trace of synthetic testosterone from some sort of topical cream or ointment.
We are all still speculating at this point. There have been some media reports but WADA, USADA and the UCI have yet to release the official reports. I think we all need to get some more information before we can make an informed decision as to guilt or innocense.
Bruce
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JAK
climber
Central NC
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Generally speaking, topical creams/ointments usually don't make it into the bloodstream. There are exceptions though, and I'm not sure if testosterone is one of them.
Regardless of that, I'm having trouble of thinking of a reason as to why a pharmaceutical company would put testosterone in a gel form. Doesn't seem to have much practical application.
Edit: Looks like T is an exception. See LEB's post below for more info.
I think the fact that Landis has synthetic testosterone in his system (bar a misfire on the test) is pretty much a smoking gun. What I still want to know is this: Is the testosterone conclusively synthetic or do they just think it is due to the elevated amount?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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What if, hypothetically, 99% of the testosterone in Floyd's system is natural and 1% is synthetic. Does that change anyone's opinion?
Again, we don't know the amount of either natural or synthetic testosterone in Floyd's urine sample. At this point we are all speculating.
Bruce
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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JAK, I hope that you don't think that I am jealous of Lance Armstorng just because I said the he always came across as a jerk to me in my first post on this thread.
I have no reason to be jealous of Armstrong, at all. I quit competitive cycling after four races because I just didn't like it.
The only reason I entered the first race, the El Sobrante Hill Climb (East Bay) in 1971, was just to win the $10 prize so I could buy a lid of grass. I came in fourth, literally inches behind the winner, (I have the fourth place ribbon still someplace) in a pack of four (there were about 30 or so cyclists if I remember correctly). The first three guys had all the gear - racing outfits, cleats on their shoes, etc. I had cutoff jeans a t-shirt and old Converse tennies. Perhaps if I had cleats to help me on the upward pedal, I would have won (I would have too).
I then raced three more time (with the same gear) in a Bay Area high school circuit/league. Never did like it. I was far more into climbing. What I did have was a Pogliaghi with all Campy gear (my brother's bike, he still has it and apparently it could fetch a pretty penny). Damn good bike.
Nope, jealousy is not the order of the day. It just is that just about every time I hear him interviewed or read his quotes, he seemed both petty and arrogant.
But you have to give the guy credit, drugs or no drugs he fought off the health adversary of cancer and won the biggest bike race.
But about this Euro bashing thing, Bob and you over-exaggerate the animosity that the Europeans have against us.
(but it's more of a sideshow to the f*ck America bandwagon truth be told)
I definitely dispute that “truth”. You are swallowing the BS right-twit anti-Euro crap. Intelligent Europeans are no more anti-American than most intelligent Americans are anti-Euro. I have lived and worked as a journalist in Europe for much the past 20 plus years, so I think I might know one or two things about the people and their attitudes.
You aren’t a neo-con by the way, are you? Or an eunuch? ;-)
No offence. Heh heh.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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LeMond was quite popular in France.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I have no problem with the validity of the test for exogenous testosterone. All I am saying is that the test only determines whether external testsoterone is present or not. The test does not determine how much.
Before we all determine guilt or innocense, I want to know how much of the testosterone in Landis' urine was exogenous. I think that information is very critical to the situation.
Bruce
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