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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 23, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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I could have died 2 weeks ago. Stupid mistake, lack of communication, 40 footer turned into a 15 footer. I lived.
I swore not to mention this. It was mostly my fault.
Check your system before weighting it!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 23, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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I think that when you look at a belay, any belay, you have to do what jstan suggests above...
for instance, in the photo, what happens if the second falls? the belayer is pulled in to the redirect (there is no anchor keeping her put) if the person on the other end of the chord is some big beefy guy, there could be a lot of force....
...if the second took a bad fall there's no way to "escape the belay." That's situational: maybe the pitch isn't so bad... and the second is a lithe women... etc, etc, unfortunately that's a way I've erred in the past, assuming "well, my partner isn't going to fall anyway so I don't have to setup a great belay"
I can't imagine how the redirect might come undone, but if it did the force would come fully on the belayer, and the slack between the belayer and the anchor is rather large... the fall might collapse the belayer onto the ledge, or beyond...
it's an exercise, the visualization, that is important... "what if, what if, what if..."
I agree that it isn't a generation thing, it's a length-of-time-climbing-outdoors thing. And instruction by a mentor over a long time has been replaced by an evening discussion with a gym staff member getting your "lead card" punched... backed up by the watchful eye of wandering staff members... climbing 40' routes with bolts every 4' to 5' equipped with draws that are inspected and replaced regularly using a gri-gri and the gym supplied anchors.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 23, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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I agree that it isn't a generation thing, it's a length-of-time-climbing-outdoors thing. And instruction by a mentor over a long time has been replaced by an evening discussion with a gym staff member getting your "lead card" punched... backed up by the watchful eye of wandering staff members... climbing 40' routes with bolts every 4' to 5' equipped with draws that are inspected and replaced regularly using a gri-gri and the gym supplied anchors.
word...
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:03am PT
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Yes, Ed. As usual, jstan has said something fundamentally well thought through.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:11am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^
+1
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MisterE
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:12am PT
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When a climber starts a climb we hear only that they need to assume success if they are to "send". On the other hand if they want to give themselves a high chance of surviving, they need to do something quite different. They need to visualize what the ropes and protection will be doing when they fall.
Yes - well put, John.
The intrinsic feeling of safety in climbing now makes this a very current and relevant statement - trust nothing, especially your sense of complacency (intrinsically trusting the gear, etc).
My wife keeps telling me I am a ticking time-bomb of "I have been doing this for 20+ years".
I always beg to differ. It is the 3-5 year range that is the scariest to me.
That being said, I had good mentors who were very methodical and a little naggy about doing things "just so". I appreciate that naggyness now - later - when I am still alive.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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The first comment to that R&I piece is this:
So the photo in the article is praising Colette for a "Lost art of anchoring" when its clear she is only using 1 quickdraw on a single cold shut, tied off with only a figure 8 on a bite to rusted old chains and old biners, top rope style belaying 2 ft from the anchor instead of top-belaying directly off a stronger anchor, and all the while creating a big tangled pile of rope at the station in the dirt... I would say that this is exactly the problem the article describes.
That is an odd comment if the caption at the time was the same as it is now---i.e., asking if you can see the mistakes. Maybe the caption was changed once the author or editors saw this comment?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:36am PT
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Pick your favorite dead trad hero. Or crippled trad hero. Did he die or smash himself up because he made a stupid mistake? Damn right.
When one of the great trad climbers gets avalanched, or drops into a crevasse, or gets caught out in a storm, everybody says things like "He died doing what he loved", "it could happen to any of us" or some other stupid sh#t. But when a beginner dies, all we hear is "these damn gym climbers don't know anything. Why back in my day we..."
Yes, it's true. Plenty of beginners who learn on clip-ups get smacked when they try to make the transfer to trad climbing. Some of them die. And maybe they deserve your scorn. But what about your hero who actually did know the score, pushed past the limit anyway, and bought it? Doesn't he deserve even more scorn?
But carry on bashing gyms and young people and sport climbing and boulderers and whoever/whatever else is different from back when you were young and just as stupid as the people you're bashing.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:38am PT
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I resisted making detailed comments on the picture. She may have been belaying a five year old weighing 45 pounds. I don't want to leverage my lack of information into unfairness. Try not to do harm.
I will tell a story though from my second year of climbing. I was belaying the second on a 9 just right of Horseman. Can't remember the name. As a farm boy who had seen ropes go wrong during haying I had instinctively formed the habit of looking at each situation and adopting whatever approach that situation demanded. So it was I had decided to belay sitting with a waist belay that tends to fix your ass wherever you put it. That decision made my anchor a backup. Doing so maximized my chances. The second fell in a pendulum that produced a protracted high force. After catching the fall I looked over at my tie-in. Someone had untied it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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safety is safety...
I'm not trashing on beginners... but getting people to think about these things is important.
And we do look at why someone gets killed "doing what they love" in detail... look at ANAM for instance, or the endless grinding on details on the STForum after someone dies
a couple of points:
1) when I go out with someone new I tell them that if they see something they don't like or don't understand, DO NOT ASSUME that it's OK just because I've been climbing for 40 years... both of our lives depend on the safety systems working, and having to explain things is a small price to pay compared with the consequences of my having missed something. we all have responsibility for our own safety when we go out there
2) the probability of a failure does not go down with the length of time we engage in the activity... we roll the same dice every time we go out climbing. That's why tens of thousands of pitches with no accidents doesn't translate into a vanishingly small probability that something won't go wrong on the next one... that's why sometimes even the very best of us are killed for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time...
OK, another point...
Largo recently had a bad fall in a gym which was attributed to his not having finished his tie-in knot... since then I've been a real nag asking to see the tie-in knot before the climber leaves the ground (in the gym and outside)... they've all been completed, I intend to maintain this habit... Largo isn't a beginner in my estimation, he's tied that knot countless times before, as have we all...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:56am PT
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But carry on bashing gyms and young people and sport climbing and boulderers and whoever/whatever else is different from back when you were young and just as stupid as the people you're bashing.
You seem to have misunderstood my entire point, and Ed's and Stannard's too. I began with, "I think the forces at work in climbing affect everyone, not just the younger generation." (Now I've had to go and bold it.) Later I tried to explain why the issue is not about a generational divide, even if circumstances have conspired to give that appearance. How much attention does one have to pay to rejecting "bashing young people and gyms" before that criticism is no longer trotted out?
Frankly, reactions like this are a part of the problem, because as long as it is possible to discount concerned commentary as "bashing gyms and young people," those who stand most to benefit from the observations, and they are not all young people, will find them easy to ignore.
Ok, I admit, there are those who do not seem to get past bashing gyms and young people, but tarring all comments with the same brush is no more productive than...why, then bashing gyms and young people.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:58am PT
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In his editorial, Duane Raliegh wrote:
I see a trend. In just the past two weeks I have watched climbers young and not so young but all reared in gyms or at sport crags such as Rifle who didn’t know how to hang a quickdraw, didn’t know how to tie-in at an anchor, who had absolute faith in a single bolt, didn’t know how to rappel.
If you read what Duane actually wrote he is not singling out the younger generation. This is more of a critigue of gym climbers and sport climbers not a generational thing.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:40am PT
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If you read what Duane actually wrote he is not singling out the younger generation. This is more of a critigue of gym climbers and sport climbers not a generational thing. A friend had given me a link to the TNB column, and I saw nothing controversial about it. Then I read the comments.
I think the seemingly endless verbal fights between various subsets of climbers over style (see, e.g. the "What is Trad?" thread) have caused us to react defensively to anything perceived as criticism of our preferred style of climbing, or group of climbers.
Then I remembered the semi-snide remarks of the "golden age" climbers to David Brower's comments on safety. I re-read Brower's foreword to Roper's first Climber's Guide to Yosemite Valley (the red version), that was current back when I started climbing, where he said ". . . confidence comes too fast, experience too slowly."
Sound familiar? Le plus ca change, le plus c'est la meme chose. By our human nature, we're disinclined to listen to advice from the "older generation." Too bad. Gravity's danger hasn't changed.
John
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pell
Trad climber
Sunnyvale
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Jul 24, 2013 - 05:37am PT
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Why the need to humiliate a public and inspirational climbing figure such as Colette?
The most part of an answer is as usual inside the question. Because she is Colette. It is a price for being a public person - all about you including your mistakes are in public domain.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 24, 2013 - 09:19am PT
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Despite room for improvement, chances of the follower or her dying from her set-up are slim.
There of plenty of common scenarios that are much scarier.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Jul 24, 2013 - 09:19am PT
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Didn't you know....this is the "You Hurt My Feelings" generation.
Hey Gen Y, have some humility, like the rest of us, and take critisizm when it's given.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 24, 2013 - 09:27am PT
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Let's face facts: everyone makes mistakes. If you have climbed for any length of time, you've probably made some that you think about but don't talk about. Belaying is the most fundamental aspect of staying alive while climbing; period. Getting injured is a bonus in this "sport" since it beats the alternative of getting dead. After a while we all become too comfortable with our "S.O.P." and then become defensive if questioned about what we're doing. Stuff such as checking the tie-in on the rope should become part of the S.O.P. I check Fritz, Heidi, Locker, etc., and they check mine. Largo probably wishes someone had checked HIS tie-in. Checking the anchor and directional aspects should be a part of the normal drill.
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Sciurus
Sport climber
St. George UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 10:02am PT
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While reading the article (or opinion piece is probably more accurate) I kept looking for the research or data that is going to be presented as support for Duane's perceived "trend". Instead what followed was simply a nostalgic rant about how much better things were done in the old days compared to now. That is not particularly helpful or, I suspect, even truthful. But without data, who really knows? I am a product of the old school trad days of climbing (in South Africa where I grew up) and in my experience those olden days were not any safer than today. The following is a long quote from someone who commented on the article. I just saw it this morning and it neatly captures the problems I had with the article:
"While I'd agree that safety is becoming "a dead language" I think this has more to do with how much people are sport climbing these days: when you tie, untie and fall numerous times in a day it is easy for complacency to set it. I don't think it has anything to do with quality of instruction: most gyms teach basic safety fairly effectively. Also, sport climbers have as much common sense as anyone and most will seek instruction if they plan to move into trad climbing. You argue that the old "largely self-taught" way was better but really when I think of my own self-taught experience I was fairly lucky not have come away with more scrapes. Certainly the chances of the author being injured during his learning period was higher than Tito's. Using Tito's hugely unlucky accident as proof of a trend is inaccurate and in poor taste. You're surprised there aren't more accidents? Well, people don't lose all common sense just because they climb is gyms or a sport environment. What is more likely is, as you get more and more experienced, you become more keenly aware of all that could go wrong. Seeing young people not doing things perfectly, when accidents happen you locate it in a trend rather than in the less appealing 'shit happens' category; but really are you sure this trend exists? By the way, I think even a soccer Mom or Dad would recognize that Tito's draws were being assembled incorrectly. All that his accident urges is increased supervision of minors; I doubt it's the inevitable result of 'climbing's big mistake' and safety standards across all of sport and gym climbing having apparently gone to sh&t!"
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 24, 2013 - 10:14am PT
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Sheesh, I can name half a dozen wizened trad daddies with lazy belay technique and less than optimal anchoring techniques. Not fair to single out some kids.
Rgold: climbers have a way of forgetting that there have always been people who have been apathetic, lackadaisical, perfunctory, and even unconcerned about what would seem to safety basics, not to mention the fact that folks don't agree on what those basics should be
Yup^^^
Sport and gym-climbing environments that enable climbers to progress to very high levels without acquiring anything beyond the most rudimentary equipment skills
Yup^^^
With the newer generation, really boils down to what Ed said about it being a lack of outdoor experience, and a tendency to skip steps in the learning process. Jstan also made some good points about visualization skills... not a skill taught in the gym. Hell..my local gym won't show you how to tie a cordalette for insurance reasons.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 24, 2013 - 10:38am PT
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It's not generational, not younger or older, it's "modern". By that I mean in 2013 you will see a n00b 50 year old doing the same dangerous sh#t as a n00b 20 year old.
Gyms are great. Best training tool you could ever wish for. But something needs to change.
I was training in my gym the other day. Weekday, mid morning, arrived just after opening to make use of autobelay for some power endurance work. I've just finished my warmups and am taping a new route that I'll end up running laps on, when a staff member walks up, "these ladies want to use the autobelay".
"Sure. I'm almost finished taping this, should be done within 5-10 min. Then I'll hand it over and we can share it, I'll get my intervals between their laps". Now I'm there training solo, these ladies are a pair. I NEED the autobelay, they could be climbing conventionally on any of the other 5 ropes hanging there, or leading on their own rope.
Turns out, they didn't specifically want the autobelay, they just didn't know how to belay! At all. So the "solution" is to clip them to an autobelay? WTF? How about teach them to belay maybe?!
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