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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Good for him! I'd like to watch someone do something like that in person. As someone who has been climbing 25 years my onsight ability (or hardest onsight) has been the same grade trad as it is sport. Beyond that grade I botch a sequence, etc. Even trying to redpoint something its not much harder. As the grades keep getting pushed I keep shaking my head saying "how do they do that?!"
Wish I knew how to do that.
S...
Umm, go to any popular climbing gym (at least in Boulder) and you'll see little kids climbing very hard, or should I say, what appears to be very hard to an adult. (You'll also see the same little kids get absolutely shut down on "easy" problems or routes that have mandatory long reaches.)
You won't really learn anything.
If you're not very perceptive, you'll think *wow are those kids really motivated and have some great technique and dedication and yada yada yada*.
If you're a little more perceptive, you'll realize that they have a different (better) strength to weight ratio, and consider that to their tiny little feet and fingers, what are small holds to you are jugs to them. Occasionally you'll see them climb with respectable technique, but hard gym climbing really has little to do with technique beyond the beginner level. (As an analogy, how much does being a great road biker have to do with bike riding technique?)
Watching little kids "climb hard" is about as impressive as watching monkeys "climb hard," it just boils down to different physiology. I guess if you go through life being amazed that flies can stick to walls and things like that, you can add little kids "climbing hard" to things to be amazed by.
When these little kids grow up, the best will be ever so slightly better than the best adult sport climbers are today, who are ever so slightly better than they were 10 years ago, and so. There was a big leap in performance with the advent of sport climbing and climbing gyms, but those gains have already been realized.
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SeaClimb
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
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blahblahblah....you are so off base...
They are FLASHING 5.14d now...these were the "youth" climbers of just 3 years ago.
My son's footwork and technique is off the charts, regardless of his strength to weight ratio, or tiny fingers, or whatever.
Offwidth, slab, overhangs, roofs, fingercracks, handcracks, fists, whatever...
Chris Sharma, the tail end of what i consider my era, struggles for years to send mid 5.15. Ondra sends the same route in maybe 25 goes total...
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skywalker
climber
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Yes, and I like that regardless if its bolts or tiny wires I perform relatively the same (helps with the bigger routes).
S...
Keep sending Kai!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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My son's footwork and technique is off the charts, regardless of his strength to weight ratio, or tiny fingers, or whatever.
You may think so, but will all due respect, you're probably delusional in that regard. But we don't need to personalize it.
Consider this--do you ever see any really heavy climbers pulling down hard on overhanging routes? I spend a lot of time in crowded Boulder gyms with a lot of good climbers, and I know for a fact that you basically never see that. (People bring up John Dunne, but that's a little stale by now, and no one really seems to know how heavy he was when he did his hard climbs. I've heard other people pretend that certain climbers (like Fred Nicole) are heavy when I've seen the climber in person and know that they're in fact very light, just have a little muscle on their arms.)
If there really was such as thing as having footwork or technique that is "off the charts," one would expect the occasional fatty to have and use that "off the chart" to get impressive sends. But it doesn't happen because that "off the charts" technique only exists in your mind, at least as it relates to steep sport routes, which is what the little kids to well on.
They are FLASHING 5.14d now...these were the "youth" climbers of just 3 years ago. Funny how that only seems to happen at Red River Gorge and various places in Spain where, isn't it amazing, every week we hear about more and more climbers doing their personal bests, men, women, kids, old folks, whatever. Couldn't be that the ratings are soft.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite, ca
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Any relation to Sam Lightner? The Thailand guidebook author and all around badass climber?
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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You may think so, but will all due respect, you're probably delusional in that regard. But we don't need to personalize it.
Believe me, SeaClimb isn't delusional. I've climbed with his kid on some of the most technical granite climbing anywhere, Index in Washington. Watched him hike some hold-less reachy slabs as well as well as physical 5.10 hand cracks (on lead with an anorexic rack). Ya he's got some incredible strength to weight ratio but he knows how to climb and use his feet better than most. The gyms aren't just pumping out headless sport climbers...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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My thoughts are that the gyms often foster safe habits.
The constraints on the context for 'safe' in a gym setting are so limited as to render it almost meaningless in the real world beyond tie-in knots and a bare minimum of belaying skills. Gyms don't provide rappelling skills or experience operating at anchors or around edges. It's about the equivalent of a white belt (purity, innocence and knowledge sought) in martial arts.
And I see folks attempting to cross-over from sport to trad all the time and, after watching again and again in semi-horror, I have no problem at all saying more often than not it's an awkward and dangerous transition. And that's without even going into the added dangers of attempting to sport climb on gear.
It's human nature to focus on the exceptional standouts. But when you look at the sheer numbers involved with the percentage of the total climbing demographic who attempt to cross-over to trad each year it's just flat out stupid to think the majority are managing that transition with grace and aplomb without a heightened level of risk. That is certainly NOT the norm for those I see attempting to make that leap every year.
If anything, the gym / sport climbing ramps folks' physical skills - and hence ambition and attitudes - get way ass-backwards for the many new basics they need to backup and learn in the transition.
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SeaClimb
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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Heel-y...
you took that out of context. Please note I wasn't talking about the tie-in knot/belay check.
I didn't start in a gym...they didn't exist when I started. I wish they did...
You are only bitter because of the quantity of new climbers being introduced to climbing. That is understandable...
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SeaClimb
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 9, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
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Mikey...
Thanks again for taking Drew out! He had a blast and you are the example that I was referring to about the local climbing community taking care of instructing the youngsters...
Cheers!!
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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blahblah-
Seaclimb's kid kills it.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
What you said about The Red may very well be true. Lots of news of sending there at a high level. Not sure about the soft ratings part but the Red does seem like it has a bunch of crimp ladders(powerful ones), as opposed to the techy nature of climbs at someplace like Smith.
Whatever, these kids are rad. Great to hear news like this.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 10, 2013 - 12:35am PT
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blahblah-
Seaclimb's kid kills it.
Certainly.
But is it because of his "off the charts footwork" and "mental preparation and execution."
Or is the fact that he's 4'8'' and weighs 82 pounds of more importance?
You don't need to search for something like a supernatural explanation to explain the ability of small people to hang onto small holds. I think we all agree that it's good to see kids, old farts, and everyone in between getting out and enjoying the sport of climbing at an appropriate level of challenge to their ability and body type; that's all that really matters. Anyone who thinks seeing little kids do certain things that few if any adults can do is surprising must have lived a pretty sheltered life.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Apr 10, 2013 - 01:15am PT
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I went bouldering last week and there was a pretty good kid who was all of 4'5" and watched him try desperately to dyno to holds I easily could lock off to. If you can tell me with a straight face that he has an advantage then sir, you need to get your test levels checked.
...ability of small person to hang...
There are a lot of kids that climb. There are not a lot of kids that climb a route gigantic adults rate 5.14C. Just say something nice...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 10, 2013 - 02:10am PT
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Nothing bitter about it, simply a statement of fact. It's great that your kid is exceptional - however, extrapolating that to claims of 'fostering' safety and broad swaths of that demographic easily making the transition to the outdoors or crossing-over to trad is a mistake no matter how you look at it.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Apr 10, 2013 - 02:41am PT
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Maybe the scene in the US has changed a bit since I left, but for me the most surprising and pleasing thing about this is to see a black kid climbing, not that a 13 year old is doing 14c.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 06:23am PT
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Kudos to these youths and props KaI. They're getting at it and getting hard at young age (Ashima, etc).
As someone upthread said, the future is here.
Some of these kids will never leave sport climbing. Some will drop out. Some will see walls and long trad routes and explore it and embrace it. And as Donini said, a small few might find alpinism and maybe do some great things.
These are kids already climbing at such high levels on sport. Look forward to seeing them progress and follow new paths as they grow. So many great futures ahead with today's young crop of climbers
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SeaClimb
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 09:40am PT
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Blahblah,
That route (Scarface) is significantly easier with some height advantages...
Watching someone of Ethan Pringle's height simply skip over relatively "bad" holds to decent pockets while someone who is sub 5' desperately deadpointing to absolutely $hitty holds (regardless of finger size) while maintaining body tension to keep his feet on is what I call "off the chart" technique. By that I mean very very few people regardless of size have that kind of coordination. Most likely you do not have this level of coordination (or substitute the word technique) but will simply make the excuse that "I am too big".
Now, the flip side of this is that he will continue to be able to do this as he grows as it is something he has learned in a gymnastic sense. He will never be a huge person even as an adult. He will, however, far exceed what he can do right now. This I can guarantee you. But I sense a hater and a denigrater and i'm done with this discussion.
This thread was about Kai, not Drew. Kai is a phenomenal athlete (and he is the size of many adults already, negating your comments). He is a great student, humble and very respectful. His mother has provided every opportunity for him to progress in a field with very few African Americans. She chose climbing because of its culture, the fact that it requires thinking, and many other reasons. He trains for hours a day (how much do you? maybe that's the reason you will never attain what he can?) under high level coaches. He's a first class kid who tries real hard at everything he does.
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steve shea
climber
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Apr 10, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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Those kids are unbelievable, really fit for what they do. It kind of reminds me of jibber skiing/park and pipe. It bears no resemblance to actual skiing. It is just "circus acts with skis on". Very impressive for what it is but little or no preparation for tout neige, tout terrain. This, type of climbing, very impressive for what it is, but offers little preparation for climbing in the broader context. That is not to say they cannot make the transition...looks like young Drew did. I'm living the mountain sports dream right now with 14yr old twins. They climb indoors and out, trad and sport. They rip on skis. They lap Corbets, Meet Your Maker and Broadway at JHMR like most people ski groomers. Soon they'll be leading up routes I could never do. My daughter won the Jackson Hole Town Downhill this year and follows 5.10, plays tennis, runs cross country... Go for it Kai and Drew!
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