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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 12, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
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Mackness:
IMO, the problem with climbing, or any activity that is scary and requires big effort, is that anything approaching your limit requires big desire. This is especially so on big walls, but also true on the boulders. You might like the sound of climbing, and being outdoors and with friends and doing something, but if the desire just ain't there there's no way (to my knowledge) to drum it up by way of techniques and so forth. You're just not feeling the love for it right now, and it might be more important to listen to your apathy than to try and overcome it.
Some other field might be calling for HRH Mackness as we speak, but you gotta listen to those subtle voices to hear. And by the way, the rock ain't going nowhere.
JL
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 12, 2006 - 11:04pm PT
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Mac,
You need to get out to Taqhuitz. So many easy/moderate routes with unlimited protection. Great place to get your confidence back.
I will be there this Saturday if you want to do a multipitch treadmill climb.
You could be my guest on a SCMA trip.
You will have to wear a costume.
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 12, 2006 - 11:34pm PT
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Gary,
Whats the Theme this year for the Dinner Climb.
Is it Leather and Lace again?
Juan
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:23am PT
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Margaritaville. Bring a blender. I found a small gas-powered portable in the Cabela's catalog. Not sure about hauling it up The Trough, though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:36am PT
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Here's my $0.02 worth - desire is a big part of it because most of climbing is a head game. And by climbing I mean trad leading. Somedays are going to be killer, somedays you're just going to want to crawl back into bed and not face the rock. Listen to yourself and go with the feelings. I climb better on Sunday then on Saturday in a regular week because I am mentally fatigued from work; it sounds strange but that's just me.
If you want to push into leading I think it is better to find someone closely matched to your skill level, that is my experience. Going out with someone not at your level tends to shift all the responsibility onto you, so there is added pressure and also the nagging fear that your partner can't help get you out of situations you don't feel up to climbing that day. If your partner's skill level is beyond you, then the partner will shoulder most of the burden, you'll work up excuses why you can't climb something that day... etc.
With a matched partner you'll be sharing the leads, but the burden is very much shared, you will depend on each other to pull an equal share, and you can trade leads on pitches that match your strong suit. You will get experience very close to your level on those pitches you second which are not your best. Finally, if you are having a bad day, you partner may be having a strong day and will lead the hard stuff... and you'll do the planned climbs. Somedays you'll be the strong one. And you will push each other to be better.
Best to find someone who matches.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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Read Rock Warriors Way.
Lead lots of moderate climbs (climb a 5.5 with a super light rack).
Face the fear of falling, go to the gym with a competent belayer and lob off the lead wall a few times.
Realize that Fear of Failure is usually the biggest obstacle. Climb with some beginners who are awed by your ability.
Don't climb routes because they are rated "5.(hard for you)", find routes that inspire you to climb them because of their beauty,position, or history. Sometimes getting back to the loved based motivation is all you need to break the mental barriers.
Most of all have fun and don't be hard on yourself. It only takes a few really good experiences to get the head back, just like it only takes a few bad ones to wreck it. Also, make sure you are climbing with people who are doing it for fun as well.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2006 - 12:54am PT
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Pissed wrote: "I never thought I would be offering advice to someone like you maculated. From reading your posts here and rc, I never thought I would be able to offer such a knowledgable person advice."
While flattering, I assure you I can still learn from everyone on here. I'm no God of climbing, nor anything else, come to think of it. I betcha you know a trick or two I don't, including how to get back lead head. :)
Anyway, I think Werner may have nailed it: "One day my partner couldn't lead a hard climb. I knew I could do it but I still thought if I fell I would somehow hit something and screw up my knee again."
Something about a torn rotator cuff, broken patella (after reading Rock Warrior's Way and deciding to take 20 foot lead falls on purpose and anticipating the landing), and multiple dislocated knees, I think I might just not be willing to commit because I want to save me little arm. I used to be kinda balls out climber chick aside from not wanting to take falls, but then as I got hurt more and more, I got more careful, and I back off stuff more often. Whether I use injury as an excuse and this is valid or head games, I bet that's what it is.
Largo's pretty right, too. Fast multipitch 5.easy sounds good, but really challenging myself to get back to leading solid 5.10 trad is what I am not looking forward to, as well. ::sigh:: Too bad it's so hot in the Valley. I can think of some Open Books that might be fun to play on. Conquer my fear of "Commitment." Not really, that's a good route. I just like shouting, "I have no fear of commitment!" on the crux move, then cackling hysterically at my own joke.
Shorty, you think I'd be climbing with folks like you if I TRULY cared what ya'll thought? You can climb circles round me and always will. :P We do all get caught up in our little ego games, but this time I'm not sure it's it. I am not someone who buys into the value of someone who climbs better than me as an intimidator. I probably wouldn't be a post-whore if that were the case.
This is all very good advice, though.
Juan, no chance will you find me around SCMA willingly. Sorry to offend members, but last time I got suckered into hanging out with some of them, some guy who was new led past his anchors, got stuck, and I had to freesolo up to him, make a natural pro anchor, lower him, then free solo back down to other anchors and get lowered off. I'll do it if I have to, but I've been at this way too long to hang out as a tour guide unless I'm ready for that role. Kudos to you for enjoying it. I am just not a clubby climber person.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2006 - 01:52am PT
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Hmm, you know, thinking about this further, I'm starting to see something else happening here.
This year in particular, I've not really felt much pressure to do anything at all. Climbing for me used to be about amassing experience, tales, impressive stuff. I got into it to prove someone wrong. I got into leading because it was cool. I got into trad because I thought it was The Ultimate. Then I got into Aid both for my head, and for Coolness.
I have been to many of the best spots in the US, too. I liked to brag about it. I also used to be pretty insecure. I never felt complete without a huge list of things I was doing or going to, or whatever.
Over time, I'm getting more happy with just doing whatever is available at the time. Maybe it's kayaking in the morning, or floating in the ocean on my board after wiping out (again). I'm not so driven to travel as I once was. I think climbing was something I used to prove myself to others. The people I knew; the places I'd been. The routes and types I've mastered (I can do pretty much anything except mountaineering, and I was trying to do that, too).
I think once I got into a mindset of it not really mattering what I did that weekend or who thought I was cool, the passion got lost. I'm no longer hanging on door jambs to improve crimp strength or ditching out on responsibilites to get in a climb.
That's good, and it's bad. I do like climbing. I miss the drive to do it that caused me to improve. But, security in one's self is probably good, too.
I wonder if that happens much.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jun 13, 2006 - 01:59am PT
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Take a couple lead falls - short ones at first. Build that confidence up that that rope will catch you and hitting the sharp end doesn't hurt. I find the problem with getting my lead head back is that I'm scared to fall because I forget what it's like (and what it isn't like which is the part usually stuck in my head).
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 13, 2006 - 02:37am PT
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Mac,
What the longest fall you have taken.
I have gone 50ft, it was a Blast.
Why worry, be happy.
Juan
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kubko
climber
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Jun 13, 2006 - 06:15am PT
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This is not so much an advice as my story on the same topic.
I just recovered from the heel fracture, which put me out of climbing for 6-7 weeks. After a few routes on top rope in my gym, I figured that I should try some lead climbing. But it just was not the same as before.
Normally I have no problem leading and falling, but now the knowledge that an any fall may bring back my barely healed injury really messed up my lead head.
This last weekend we went to the crack climbing paradise - or hell depending on your attitute - the sandstone area of Adrspach, Czech Republic, which is famous for its huge towers of sandstone, blank faces, endless cracks, scarce fixed pro (rings) and abundance of R/X routes.
I reasoned that I need to improve my crack climbing for my trip to Yosemite this fall, so I will get some mileage following and not worry about leading at all.
There was, however, a catch - I was the only one of the group who have ever climbed cracks on sandstone - a fact I discovered too late. So if we wanted to climb at all it was time to recover my "lead head" quickly!
What I did, is that I chose a route which looked like it could go (it was even called "training crack" and set off. I got scared 4 meters off the ground and downclimbed. Climbed up again and tried to place some pro (only knotted slings are allowed), failed and climbed down. I had climbed first 5 meters up and down for the fifth time, recovering my morale on the ground after each attempt.
Than I felt secure enough to try and make just one or two more moves - I can donclimb anytime - right? So I did and suddenly got that "go for it" feeling and went up to the first ring at 12 meters off the ground. The going got tougher, the crack widened from perfect hands to wide hands and fists. I realised that the ground fall would be nasty, but it did not trouble me. I felt that each jam was perfect, I just knew I would not fall. My lead head was back!
Yes, it was back, but only for a few minutes. I tried to lead other routes that weekend but it just did not work. With each route I had to do the same - few trips up and down the first meters off the groud or a ring till I was able to clip and hangdog the next ring.
All in all not a very successful trip as far as "sends" are considered... but what a feeling being on back in climbing and on lead again! Even if just for a few minutes.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2006 - 10:15am PT
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Juan, that's part of the problem. I have no idea what my lead limit is. I will down climb if I don't think I can pull a move. I learned with a guy whose philosophy was "don't fall" and I think you get set into that mindset.
So, the longest fall I've taken was a purposeful one to get back lead head, maybe 20-25 feet after a succession of shorter ones, and then I broke my knee. They made me climb the route right after so I wouldn't be scared, though. :P
Yeah, that's right. I've never taken a real lead fall. Except one time on aid.
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soaring_bird
Trad climber
Cheyenne, WY
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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Mac.... Obviously, you aren't the first one to experience this.
In the early '80's, I developed carpel tunnel syndrome really bad in both hands, probably from so much nailing, jugging, and hauling. In the same year, I lost three friends to climbing accidents in different parts of the world. These events took the wind right out of the sails in terms of my desire to climb. So I took about 4 years off, made 400 skydives, flew paragliders, and learned to fly airplanes.... all with the same passion and commitment that I had invested in climbing for so many years. It was the best thing I could have done. (Freefall is incredible and indescribable once you learn to relax, fly well, and really do things you never even realized were possible in that element.... highly recommend it.) Eventually, I got back into climbing and I now mostly seek out classic 5.7 and 5.8 trad routes and try to visit many areas that I never took the time to visit in the early years.... and I spend a lot of time exploring remote and obscure areas. By refocusing on the easy-moderates I can really enjoy high quality rock and the simple pleasure of moving on solid holds with absolutely no pressure or expectations from others or myself. This has really put climbing back into perspective for me, and rekindled the original love, excitement, and a sense of peace and satisfaction with climbing that I had not known for years. I also discovered that roped soloing easy moderates opened up new doors of opportunity for solitude and offered unique rewards that I had not previously considered as well. So in response to your mental dilemma, I would say, sink your teeth into some completely new and different challenges for awhile (a sport, an educational degree, extended foreign travel with a super light-weight pack, a hobby or lifestyle.... anything) and don't even think about climbing for a couple years. There's so much more in life to experience, and you know deep inside that you'll always be able to come back when the time is right. You won't regret it, and you'll be back more at peace than the day you stepped away for awhile. You will also realize that it isn't the grade or difficulty that ultimately really matters, but rather the simplicity of just moving your body on the rock in an easy flowing motion of dance with full mental control and peace that brings the reward... There is so much peace to experience merely in the act of climbing, regardless of grade or difficulty.... perhaps reaching my mid-forties also helped me reach this conclusion. It seems clear that your mind is telling you to step away and clear your head for awhile, but...... If you choose not to leave climbing temporarily, I also agree that a great book to help you out is "The Rock Warrior's Way." Good luck.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:33am PT
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My lead limit is whatever I can french free.
You must have a base level you know you can do.
5.6, 5.7, 5.8.
Just have fun.
You have to work your way back up to the harder (better?) climbs.
Juan
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thedogfather
Trad climber
Midwest
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Jun 13, 2006 - 11:27am PT
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Mac, after climbing for 15yrs I took 14yrs off for family and career. I started back in about 2 yrs ago and found the same issue you are having. I didn't have the burning desire to push my limits. But, I made the big mistake of jumping on a 9+ early in my comeback and it kicked my ass. I have dropped my sights a little and am taking it a little slower i.e. 6's and 7's that are classic. But, unlike you, I live in Kansas so I only get a good trip about every other month or so and have to get the feel all over again. So, I just get the mindset that I will enjoy myself and not do anything too stupid. I just read Rock Warrior's Way and parts of it really did help my head. What a huge difference going from Devils Tower 5.7s to Eldo 5.7s. It really taught me what type of climb I feel comfortable on. I got up the Tower but it was way too much work and I never felt real comfy (lead every pitch). Eldo was so much more relaxed and enjoyable. So bottom line for me is to not only stay on moderates for a while til I build up my tick count but do ones that fit my climbing style.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Jun 13, 2006 - 11:51am PT
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Be safe.
Have fun.
Or not.
Your choice.
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trapeze artemis
climber
Surf City
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Jun 13, 2006 - 11:53am PT
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Kmac
It continually astonishes me that you are willing to open yourself up this way on a public forum.
As you are well aware I was witness to a rather stunning tragedy, one that haunts me to this day and it appears I will bear the mental scars from it for the rest of my life.
What you may not be aware of is that for a time I contemplated never climbing again.
The fun was over, the enjoyment was gone. I felt nothing but fear everytime I tied in for several weeks.
Fear of failure crippled me, I felt I had let everyone down and failed my partner and 2 strangers who needed me.
I will always carry a portion of that burden.
As you know I continued to climb however.
I stayed away from the hard (for me) routes and climbed easy fun enjoyable routes and basked in the company of my friends.
That's part of climbing for me now, spending time with people I like.
We've talked about surfing together and how for me it's mostly about spending time with you, my friend.
The lead head may or may not go away but I think having fun is more important than climbing hard.
Don't get me wrong I still like climbing hard (for me) but that's a different kind of fun.
Art
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
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True, true, Art.
I don't really see this as opening up. Maybe I don't think that what I'm saying is something I need to be embarrassed about or hide? It's not like I'm a pro climber admitting to these feelings. I'm the world's most famous 5.4 climber, according to RC.com. I don't have a persona to live up to. I figure if you know the worst, you'll be pleased with the reality. :)
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 13, 2006 - 01:38pm PT
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Hi, Mack,
Your problem is personal, and no one but you can read and solve it (hence, the usefulness of the suggestions to listen closely to yourself). Your “automatic sensing device” (your discomfort) is signaling that something in you needs developing. Pema Chodron likens such development, learning, or evolution to “leaning into sharp points.”
When a person’s identity loses its ground, a person will feel fear and discomfort--sometimes in spades. But, fear is a universal experience and an important part of being alive. It is a natural reaction to loneliness, uncertainty, ambiguity, and death. It is also an automatic reaction of the ego when moving closer to truth. Any person who stands on the edge of what she knows (or doesn’t know) experiences a dizzying sense of groundlessness and looks fear in the eye. Only then can a person begin to undo old ways of being. It leads to the compassion and courage needed to continuously die “the little deaths” of self-identity and being. It’s the beginning of a personal transformation.
What Casteneda, Ilgner, Trungpa Rinpoche, Chodron, and other say is this: discomfort and chaos are actually good news. Discomfort and chaos are moments of clarity for learning about one’s being. Discomfort indicates that a person is stuck and that he or she needs to become a new and different person. It is not a change in behaviors--but a change in being.
Most people tend to push away or soften uncomfortable situations, or they handle them with various addictive behaviors. But gently “leaning into sharp points” tends to soften people’s hearts and the assumptions about themselves, and increase their consciousness. Gently leaning into sharp points should increase their understanding, confidence, empathy, and awareness of themselves in the world. It means they are about to break new ground and into new ways of being.
Congrats. You’re on your way.
MikeL
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Jun 13, 2006 - 02:36pm PT
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I've been climbing, mostly as a second, for over 20 years. The lead head thing has been a big problem for me.
I finally just sorta quit worrying about it, and guess what? It's not so bad.
I don't think, I just lead the first climb of the day. Of course, I pick something easy, or close to my limit.
I just went climbing a few days ago, for the first time in 6 months or so. (Why is complicated) I didn't even think, I just racked up for a short 5.7, secured a belayer, and did it. It felt great. This has been a good way for me to get into leading. Right now, I'm only following 5.8-9.
I too have aspirations to lead 5.10 trad, I have in the past. But worrying over it is no help at all.
It will either happen, if I get out enough, or it won't.
I don't let it define me anymore, I just enjoy the times I do get out climbing.
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