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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 25, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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My own belay rapel device progression from the late 60s on was hip belay/dulfersitz, Stitch plate/carabiner brake bar, figure 8/figure 8, tuber/tuber.
I remember using a chain link but didn't like them compared to Stitch plates even if they were much lighter.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
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A carabiner brake would make a reasonable belay device, though it might be a bit clumsy. Some of us used to do a hip belay where the rope would come down, go through a carabiner (e.g. on a Whillans harness), around your body, then back through the carabiner. Thus considerably increasing likely friction and control.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 25, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
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Well, I don't recall ever seeing a carabiner brake used for belaying, but did see them used for lowers and rescue purposes, where control was essential. Usually multiple rigs, sometimes with multiple brake bars etc. I've used a carabiner brake for rappelling with three and even four cross carabiners (i.e. 2 x 2 x 3 or 2 x 2 x 4), and with four across you can barely get the rope through, even using big ovals. The physics of the situation is much the same as any other belay 'device' - the more angles the rope goes through, and the tighter those angles, the greater the friction. And you never get full control with any belay device, except perhaps things like grigris. Pull hard enough and the rope will move, unless jammed or tied off elsewhere.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
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Gary Storrick's website has an exhaustive list of belay devices (also ascenders, descenders) along with photos and information. He may have something about the history of prototype/early belay devices. The site is fun to check out, regardless. Just type in Gary Storrick on a search engine. I do remember one of the first 'Gunkies I met in the early '70s was using a simple metal link as an improvised Sticht plate, so the idea was around.
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
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The patent document for the Sticht belay plate is here http://tinyurl.com/cn36ynp
The patent, which covers only Germany, was applied for in 1969. The belay plate (invented by Fritz Sticht) caught on very rapidly and was in general use here in Sweden already in 1970.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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What about the "psychological belay"?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
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Thanks mellpat!
What configuration of plate appeared in the patent drawings? My guess would be single hole round.
Any recollection of plates or links before 1969 in your memory?
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mellpat
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Steve:
Click at "Mosaics" to the left in the link I gave and the patent drawings show up. The Sticht belay plate was the original belay plate and there was nothing of the kind before. I still have my plate as shown in fig.2 (single hole) but cannot find it right now.
edit: The variants with a spring to hold the plate away from the carabiner came later (also from Salewa) but weren't patented.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:46pm PT
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It's impossible to imagine Dulfer or anyone else could have used the Garda hitch for belaying the leader---it only allows the belayer to take rope in, not feed it out. For the second maybe, although lowering would not be possible.
Although I haven't done any measurements, I have long experience rappelling with carabiner brakes and, much later, with modern tube-style devices and would say, on balance, that you could get as much and possibly more friction from the carabiner brake, especially remembering that the ropes at that time were 11mm. That said, no one I knew ever used them for belaying the leader because of the difficulty of paying out slack.
My first Sticht plate was just a rectangle with a slot and no spring. It now resides in Rock and Snow's little museum. I think the spring came later, and the patent document linked upthread seems to confirm that.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 25, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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this guy links the sticht invention to use of chain link on snub ropes in sailing:
Developed from a chain link used by old sailors as a snubber to a simple plate with slots by Fritz Sticht
http://www.climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
again, aside from rescue situations, it's tough to imagine a belay plate having any appeal until after the development and popularization of the hip belay. you weren't going to use a sticht plate with a shoulder belay which was the dominant belay in the Alps in Dulfer's age and well after.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Looks like the rectangular single hole probably hit the market first. I have one buried somewhere...LOL
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 25, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
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Warbler, I also had a figure 8 in 1977 - not sure of before then - seems like it was a fairly recent acquisition for me then - may have been made by Clog - I still have that one and will track it down. I used it for that season for solo rapelling it seems safe in terms of heat dissipation. I was atracted to it because it was large - it was twice as large and massive as current 8s. Actually, I think it was twice as big as the 80s versions and probably 3 times the mass, at least, of current versions.
Looks like there's a pic of my Clog descender type over on the 'The first Purposeful Nut' thread.
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 25, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 25, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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The old hip belay sure held LOTS of falls back in the day.
Oh, yeah...
 ec
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Nov 25, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
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All Of This Has Happened Before And Will Happen Again!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
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Storrick does a first rate job but it seems that he too is still trying to nail down dates of product origination.
I wonder if the figure eight was designed with clip ring belaying in mind. Using it as friction brake in normal rappel mode is certainly something they thought of in the design.
Since figure eights and Sticht plates show up at about the same time it would be fun to crawl around in these guys minds.
Anyone have the Clog catalog from 1970 or thereabouts? A catalog shot of the small ring in play would be definitive!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Anders- Why did you pull your post upthread?
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Jan 18, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
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Clog started in 1966 and there were already 8´s in use by then, there was one in bronze available in Chamonix at that time as one of my climbing mentors had one, probably Cassin but maybe Italian. Certainly the first one I´m aware of but it wasn´t used for belaying, the big Clog one was probably the first was used that way (I´ve still got mine lying around somewhere).
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 18, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
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Thank for the background Jim.
A date of 1966 would likely put the Clog or predecessor as the earliest belay device unless the Pierre Allain meathook descender had a configuration that could be used that way. I have never seen the instructions for the Pierre Allain and I don't own one to experiment with.
My catalog collection is poor but I have the Allain descender in a 1965 Eiger catalog.
The earliest belay device is likely to be a carabiner used with a Munter hitch but it is fun to try to line this all up in a verifiable way.
I wonder who invented the brake bar?
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