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Mike Libecki
climber
the moment of now
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Apr 23, 2006 - 01:24am PT
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I beleive if it is not an act of nature (rock/ice fall, weather, etc.) climbing accidents are human error. I especially know several incidents here in Utah where people do not know the gri gri well enough and have made a mistake. The reliance on gear as a crutch and not proper know how has caused many deaths and accidents. My best energy to y'all to find safe and fun times in the steeps.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Apr 23, 2006 - 03:14am PT
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The Gri Gri tag says that they do not recommend ropes under 10.2 to be used with Gri Gri, now I do not have any 9 mm rope but I am sure others have better idea how Gri Gri handles ropes under 10
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 23, 2006 - 03:14am PT
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umm .. this is about the 3rd or 4th time that i've heard that a skinny rope did not autolock with a grigri ..
i've never heard of a 10mm or larger rope failing to engage a grigri ..
.. so i guess the petzl guys must know something...
.. i think a grigri belay is pretty much a brainless operation when used with a thick enough rope .. (heck.. i've even fallen asleep while belaying with a grigri -- using large enough ropes, this works just fine) --
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Apr 23, 2006 - 04:07am PT
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My guess? It was threaded backwards. If you are more used to belaying topropers than leaders with the grigri...and you have it threaded backwards, it makes perfect sense that as the leader climbs it is *not* grabbing the cam when you feed rope.
You load the grigri in the same orientation for top-roping as you do for leading.
Unless you mean that perhaps she got used to catching top-rope falls on a grigri loaded backwards?
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Paulstott
Mountain climber
twickenham
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Apr 23, 2006 - 08:35am PT
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on a slow fall i have seen 10mm ropes slide though a gri gri it does take a lot of finger work to belay correctly with one
Glad you are ok
personally i always use a dmm bug or a Bd Atc as i don't trust them
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Eddie
Trad climber
Boston
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Apr 23, 2006 - 10:00am PT
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Werner said:
"I use a 9mm with gri-gri and one must be very diligent with
the belay. I wrap the rope around my belay hand at critical
times for extra security."
Why would you bother using a grigri (and a 9mm) if you have to wrap the rope around your hand to be safe?
Not trying to be confrontational, just looking for info from an expert...
pete
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Apr 23, 2006 - 10:55am PT
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Hi Phoolish:
What I mean is:
(Caps not for shouting, just to show the differences.)
When someone is toproping on a grigri, and they are moving up the climb, you can YARD IN as much rope to follow their upward movement as fast as you like and the cam does not engage.
When someone is LEADING on a grigri, and you are GIVING them rope to go up, and clip, etc. the cam can catch and be a pain.
If you lead belay often, and you are paying out rope and never having to manage the cam, you will figure out there is something wrong.
If you have only belayed toprope and you are yarding out tons of slack but, oddly, no cam ever starts to engage as the LEADER GOES UP, you might not notice the problem.
See what I mean? Any lead belayer would probably soon notice that there was something wrong...no accidental cam engagements? Its loaded backwards.
-Kate.
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Apr 23, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
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I get what you mean now, and it makes good sense.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Apr 23, 2006 - 01:18pm PT
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I've felt for quite some time that technology has gone beyond commom sense. I loath gri gris and refuse to use them. You would have been fine with a body belay if your belayer had experience with it. Be that as it may, a standard belay device would have worked just fine. Keep it simple.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 23, 2006 - 01:20pm PT
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"When someone is LEADING on a grigri, and you are GIVING them rope to go up, and clip, etc. the cam can catch and be a pain.
If you lead belay often, and you are paying out rope and never having to manage the cam, you will figure out there is something wrong."
I used to, occasionally, use the grigri with a skinny lead rope (or skinny toprope). It has been my experience, that with a skinny/slick enough rope, you can treat the grigri like a normal ATC and, in fact, the cam will never catch when feeding out leader slack (no cam management necessary). This makes it easy to keep the brake hand on the rope, just like an ATC and you don't have to worry about holding the lever down to feed slack and you don't have to worry about accidently keeping the lever down during a fall/catch. It was also my experience that it was as easy to hold/catch a fall with the grigri (with a skinny rope) as it was an ATC. No, its no going to automatically lock off, but neither does an ATC.
Why use a grigri than over an ATC? If somebody is hangdogging a route, it still is easier to hold them in place with the grigri, but that is perhaps the only advantage.
I've switched to the Cinch and like it much, much better for use with skinny ropes. It is a PITA to get used to the sensitive lowering, but once I did, I've been very happy with.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Apr 23, 2006 - 01:52pm PT
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Most of my partners belay everything with a GriGri( maybe I need to loose a few lbs?). I prefer to only use them on walls ( where I like Ricardo have fallen asleep on long belays) and for solo aid stuff.
The cinch sucks and your getting used to the sensitive release is BAD NEWS. You will encounter a situation where you will have serious problems. Heavy partner, overhanging rock, wet rope or something. I initially loved the way the cinch feeds but they screwed up the design of both the release lever and the shape of the locking cam. Be careful.
If your being belayed by your wife or SO or just a Noob, your probably on moderate rock ( for you) and that's usually when you make an inattentive mistake. My longer falls are when "cruising" easy ground and not paying 110%. You could tie a series of clove hitches on biners on the rope behind the belayer. This could help you from hitting the deck. Probably 3 total at 50' intervals and the Noob could just unclip the clove hitch before the rope goes through your belay device.
Dropping the leader is not an acceptable part of the game and I'm dismayed by how frequently I hear of this horror story. I was dropped once while ice climbing, I don't climb with that POS anymore.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 23, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
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Speaking of backwards threading, once at a sport crag, a panic stricken belayer called up to the leader, "Dude! You're the hand!"
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 23, 2006 - 03:40pm PT
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"Dude, You're the hand!"
Lol - that's a classic...!
I think it's safe to say that the overwhelming preference for, and popularity of, grigri's is all about dogging. Their status as the defacto belay device has for a long time said that dogging is universally accepted as the way to climb both sport and trad. The acceptance of dogging is what really initially distinguished sport from trad, and folks were doing it way before the grigri, but it was the perfect tool for the time it arrived. But auto-belay devices are also probably the most misused devices climbing has ever seen. The number of minor belay gaffs and screw-ups in gyms and crags that never get reported is probably a staggering number given how many devices are in use. And "Dude, you're the hand!" probably happens more often than ever gets told. In general I don't think statistically there's anyway to "abdicate" any aspect of belaying, i.e. the auto-belay function, without a price being paid for it somewhere along the way in either learning, use, or in this case the impedence mismatch between the current older device not keeping up with the newer rope technologies.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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Weird
I've used the gri-gri for my belay device exclusivly since it first came out on the market.
Never had a problem.
What's with you people?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 23, 2006 - 04:59pm PT
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Apr 23, 2006 - 07:09pm PT
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What's with you people?² ....classic...
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Rags
Trad climber
Sierra foothills, CA
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Apr 23, 2006 - 07:32pm PT
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"What's with you people?"
An interesting question.
I would suggest that the advent of "self-locking" belay devices has altered the mindset of belayers. When belaying with more traditional devices (ex. tubes, plates, etc.) belayers are obligated to remain engaged in the belay of the climber. There is the understanding that it is the belayers responsibility to catch the fall.
The introduction of self-locking devices, the Gri-Gri particularly, changes the mindset. It is now the device that catches the fall. This leaves some belayers less than fully engaged in the belaying of the climber.
Werner, I think your question illustrates this fully. You learned, as i did, to "be the belay". This mindset remains unchanged, and allows you to use said deveices without incident. The alternative mindset wrongly places more responsibility on the device. Look at the title of this thread! Too many climbers have grown up with the Gri-Gri, and fail to understand that full responsibility for the climber in their hands.
Even if the Gri-Gri did fully fail, the belayer would have known EXACTLY what happened, IF they had been fully engaged in the belay process.
Belay devices don't fail, belayers fail!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 23, 2006 - 08:12pm PT
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Although it's better to follow the instructional cartoon, the belayer's hand on the rope will prevent this sort of accident no matter who is "the Hand."
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Apr 23, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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Jay is right. A grigri will work just fine when loaded backwards. It works just like an ATC that way.
The only thing other than belayer failure I can think of is that the grigri may have been full of sand which may have interfered with the operation of the cam. I would recommend keeping a toothbrush on your chalk bag to brush out the g-rig's innards every so often (maybe every pitch on a very sandy route).
I climb on a 9.2 mm and have never had problems with it with a grigri, but I don't use a grigri to belay a leader on gear. I like the idea of a little slippage to soften the catch, plus, I know I won't blow it and short rope someone when the cam locks up. Belaying is an art. Bolts and grigris give the sense that belaying is 'idiot proof'. It is quite the opposite.
Edit: Even if the grigri was jammed up with sand, one can still stop a fall by locking off just like with a standard belay device, so no matter what was jammed in the grigri, the bottom line appears to be belayer error.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 23, 2006 - 11:42pm PT
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Up above Hardman Knott and maybe others say they dropped people or were dropped using a gri-gri by holding the rope the same as a "traditional device."
That is b.s.
the gir-gri offers more then enough friction, even when not locked up for whatever reason, more then enough friction IF the brake hand IS held just like a "traditional device".
imho
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