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MikeA
climber
Layton, Utah
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Apr 23, 2003 - 01:19pm PT
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"I was trying to be a little criptic on purpose because I don't really want the area more exposed to abuse."
Then shut the funk up!
You're such a damn whiner. You put up routes 10 years ago, then disappear off the face of the earth and expect everyone to know that you intended for your routes to have no anchors!?
If you're not going to participate in the climbing community, you don't write down and publicize your routes, then you surrender all rights to complain about it when someone else comes along. Although it's obvious to YOU that the routes had been climbed, it isn't obvious to everyone.
I would guess "most" climbers find it terribly inconvenient to have a bolted sport route with no anchors. Whoever added an anchor probably thought he was doing a service by correcting the cheap-ass attempt of the FA'er to save a little money, and screw every climber that comes along afterward. If you're putting steel into rock, you've already crossed the ethical line, so at least do it right and put in a proper anchor.
There is a climbing COMMUNITY. If you're not participating in it, then stop complaining, or go back to jumping off cliffs.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 02:20pm PT
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Hey Russ,
maybe he knows more than he's letting on -
and is trying to avoid getting sued....
Greg (this post is copyrighted...)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2003 - 02:36pm PT
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Mike A,
We are not just talking about adding cold-shuts to an already existing line of bolts and great anchors at the top.
We are talking about adding many more bolts to an obvious line of pre-existing bolts on the climb itself.
For the retro-climbers to claim they didn't know there was a climb there already, they would have to blind
and "__" (you fill in the missing abusive name for yourself). Like I said, you're grandparents could easily
do the climb with no fear at all. Why bother? Why not just top rope it now since the danger and fear is now exactly
the same. When you climb these routes now, it is as though you are walking a top rope up the climb as you go. How
adventurous is that? There is very little respect in the climbing community now. It is a sad state of affairs and a
mirror of society. Sad, very sad . . .
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pinkpoint
Social climber
Nevada
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Apr 23, 2003 - 02:39pm PT
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I used to boulder up at the Gun Club, or Lizard's mouth, above Santa Barbara back in the mid eighties. I worked on one tall boulder face many times before getting the nerve to do a strenuous mantle about 15' up. I went back a few years ago, and found anchor bolts at the top. Ha. Like a big wankstain, if you ask me.
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Demented
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 02:58pm PT
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Problem is... we're all so into being studs and studettes..
Can't just do a climb and enjoy the moves (i.e. sometimes it's OK to top rope? Rather plaster every inch of rock with a bolt)..
I know, I know.. a *real* climber has to be a bad ass and lead it (clipping a bolt every 10'; yea that's real bad).
Another problem is this "oh-so-secret" location was always regarded as chossy. Pretty much a pile (rightly or wrongly). So- no strong ethic ever developed. Makes it easier to turn it into a sport climbin' rodeo ...
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MikeA
climber
Layton, Utah
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Apr 23, 2003 - 05:28pm PT
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"We are not just talking about adding..."
I don't know what you are talking about because it's a big secret. Remember? So until you tell us what we're talking about, you'll have to whine elsewhere to get sympathy.
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lin
Trad climber
ca
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Apr 23, 2003 - 06:29pm PT
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Klimmer
You are one super cool guy if you ask me. You do a lot of whinning for being gone from the climbing community for 8 years.
Do you even realize that the sport has evolved. If it was your piece of paridise and such a great area, why didn't you just fence it off and charge
people to climb your incredible routes with out any anchors? If it wasn't your property then maybe you shouldn't have put the few bolts in,
because maybe the land owner didn't want the bolts in anyway.
Keep up the good whinning it makes for fun threads.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Apr 23, 2003 - 09:03pm PT
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I can deduce the area being discussed and I haven't even been there. I guess that's proof postitive that the cat's out of the bag on this particular spot. I can sympathize with the remorse one might feel at seeing a once tranquil and hidden spot developed and publicized. However, if you didn't want to participate and guide the development you can only complain so much.
fyi. I've noticed lots of pictures of this area on RC.com recently. Seems like it's popular with SoCal climbers.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 23, 2003 - 10:40pm PT
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Blaming everything on overpopulation is simplistic as hell and predictably dirtbag. The traffic on the captain, for example, in 2003 versus 1963 is a growth far beyond that of population. It's related to publicity and propaganda, including mags, but more likely to the fact that we keep returning ourselves and to our own inabilities to shut our own mouths. Nor, apparently, does anyone on this thread seem to see the irony of someone being present at a crag while being pissed at anyone else's right to be present. The issues here are personal, involving ego and self-interest, and are unrelated to the existence of other human beings.
PS: kids invented climbing.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 23, 2003 - 10:44pm PT
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"but more likely to the fact that we keep returning ourselves and to our own inabilities to shut our own mouths."
Too true...
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Bob Jones
Trad climber
san luis obispo
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Apr 23, 2003 - 11:50pm PT
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yo....monkies invented climbing.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 24, 2003 - 12:46am PT
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and monkies invented kids .... sort of. or something.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2003 - 01:00pm PT
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After re-reading all the posts, it seems to me there are two very distictive camps of climbers:
Those who probably started climbing before the advent of sportclimbing and respect history,
but can also appreciate a well done sport route.
Those who started after the advent of sport climbing and say "Screw-it I'm going to do whatever
the hell I want because nobody owns the rock." That my friend is anarchy.
I will be getting in touch with the guidebook author after I simmer down a bit.
But, with his very bizarre entry on the title page "All route names, ratings, and descriptions
by _ and _ are copyrighted 2002 and may not be used without permission."
Makes one wonder if that would be very smart? Yea, I'm worried about getting sued (he-he-he).
Wouldn't that be a funny and hilarious issue on court TV? First ascentionist gets sued by
guidebook author . . .LOL
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Apr 25, 2003 - 06:05pm PT
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Adding bolts to old runouts is the norm now, we can thank the bafoons at ASCA and the magazines for promoting "safe" climbing. In yosemite new bolts are popping up everywhere even on routes established in the 60's, if the old dads didn't need them with hemp ropes and tennis shoes why are these sacred bolts necessary in the year 2003 with aliens, C4, and micro-cams? What needs to happen is these Do-Rights need to remmember no matter how many bolts you add/replace climbing will always be DEATH! step off the ground and DIE! Chop Bolts, Preserve Runouts, save climbing from the Sport!
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Apr 25, 2003 - 06:45pm PT
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Sounds really scary.
Here's a thought- maybe there are more than 2 types of climbers, maybe you are over simplifying things to suit your own idea of right and wrong. I have to agree w/ those who say you are in no position to complain when you chose not to participate.
Even now you are vague about this magical climbing spot, presumably because the 25 people who might read this thread will surely show up on every weekend w/ all of their friends and pets in tow? Perhaps if you weren't trying to keep it such a secret in the first place the rest of the climbing community would have had the opportunity to respect your FAs and the style you climbed them in...
But where were you?
And who knew about the area?
You were always secretive about that place, weren't you?
So you were hoarding the knowledge of this cragg like a hermit w/ his secret burried treasure?
So where did that get you?
Whose fault is it then?
And why do you get to complain about it to us?
Not a fan of the bolts, but not a fan of the way you paint this picture and point the finger at everyone else, dude- and to expect everyone to do the self cleaning rap-sling trick is a joke.
-Fc
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2003 - 06:33pm PT
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I promise this will be the last word about this on this forum from me.
Yes, there are more than 2 kinds of climbers; I generalized to make a point.
Most generalizations have a kernal of truth in them though.
I did participate in the climbing community when I made the decision to put in some very nice climbs
in a once very classic and quiet climbing area. It had history even though most didn't hear about it or
read about it. If you went there and participated over the years you bouldered free solo or tope-roped
mostly. A few very run-out routes were put in with button-heads. It had history. All you had to do was
open your eyes and observe. The formation I've been talking about here had a very run-out 2 bolt lead
that diagnalled across the east face of the formation with the start on the northface. Whoever that 1st
ascentionist was participated in the climbing community also. It doesn't take rocket science to see what
they did and why. A ground-up runout lead on a classic formation with an awesome view. I respected
that climb, lead it several times and left it as it was out of respect. Now in the unnamed guidebook, they
don't even show this climb. Noone would know about it since it is virtually erased. I used it to get to the
top and do my own leads. I made my statement with my climbs. A little runout but with great 5-piece bolts
and very good anchors at the top. Again, it doesn't take rocket science to know what I meant and that is
the way I chose to put in these climbs. Both of us participated in the community of climbing and made our
statements. If you choose to put it a new climb and put your bolts in every dawm 3 feet then that is your
choice on your first ascent. Everyone else will probably leave it alone. We might laugh, but that is your
statement. Now we get others who are retrobolting and adding more bolts to already done finished climbs. That
is unethical no matter how you look at it. If you don't like it don't lead it. Set-up a toprope if you can instead. Don't change
history. Show respect.
Now if an old route needs new bolts because it is dangerous since the original
bolts are decaying then that is a different matter. But again, don't add more bolts just replace the bad
existing ones. It is all very logical and simple. You also preserve the climbing history of the place.
Not every climbing area needs to be published or have a guidebook done on it. I'm not anti-guidebook.
It just would be very nice to know some (or many) places could be kept quiet and left alone for those
who happen to discover it, so they can then enjoy it without the place changing a great deal over time. Slow as opposed
to overnight. This guidebook has not been out for very long and the place has already radically changed
and not for the better. This is a very visible area in the public eye (literally) and bad ethics can (or will) destroy the place
for everyone.
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2003 - 07:48pm PT
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Klimmer, I read through the exchange that developed, and your last post, and i actually respect what you said. It turns out I climbed at said area a month ago for the first time, and I didn't know there was a guidebook out until we ran into some locals the end of the second day. I certainly don't know about quiet and pristine - there were 4-wheelers and dirt bikes buzzing around all day.
As for the idea that the "guidebook is just out and the area has already changed dramatically," I'm not sure about that one. Seems to me from what the locals told me, that one guy had been putting up most of the routes for over four years. I didn't look to see the copyright date on the book. I won't argue with you over the ethics of retrobolting and overbolting your routes and others, but I agree with the sentiments of previous posts that if you had been around to participate during your 8-year absence, things might have been different. I know when i go to a new area, i look for published material and talk to people around the area to see what the deal is. If no one is around and nothing is published, and most routes are topropes, how is someone to know what the ethic is? They'd assume its undeveloped.
The routes we climbed were safe (aside from crumbling rock), but they weren't overbolted like you mention (we didn't make it to your tower, don't think), and they weren't anywhere close to the obscenity at Sport Park in Boulder Canyon, CO.
Simply not publishing a guidebook does not keep people away. i lived and climbed in new mexico for a while, and knew the developers of a stellar area. They had no intention of publishing anything on the area, and requested that no one else put anything out. But from the people they new, and took there, word spread and eventually hundereds of people were visiting. Never many at a time, but enough to impact the area, and eventually cause a forest fire.
Anyway, the impact of climbers here is still pretty minimal relative to other uses.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Soviet Monica, Ca.
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Apr 28, 2003 - 08:07pm PT
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Hey Fresno Dave,
Where in The Land of Entrapment did u used to live?
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Dave
Mountain climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 28, 2003 - 10:07pm PT
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Hell. Oh, wait. Carlsbad. Just for a year and a half, before I came to my senses and escaped back to Colorado.
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JR
climber
boulder, CO
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Apr 29, 2003 - 03:54pm PT
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Dave-
I lived and climbed extensively in NM for 5 years and I'm having difficulty thinking of the semi-secret climbing area that was burned as a result of increased climber usage.
If you are speaking of the Dungeon near Los Alamos, then yes, that was scorched by fire, but it was not caused by climbers. That was the huge fire that burned homes in Los Alamos and large chunks of the Jemez... that fire was started by a controlled park service burn in Bandelier that got out of control. "Hundreds of people" visiting this, or any other NM area, is certainly an exageration.
If you are talking about the climbing near Alamogordo or Queen, then has there been a fire at one of these areas?
Anyway, don't knock NM... there are certainly a lot worse places one can live and be a climber (though I feel for you on that Carlsbad thing)
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