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sempervirens
climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:51am PT
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TMJesse, um, that was sacrasm,... right? When is the deadline for comments?
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Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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Interior is moving up on my list of federal departments to kill. We need to start a via ferrata PAC.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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There will be guys showing with bed sheets tied together for a rope to get up that monster .....
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:28am PT
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I read the EA and it is flawed in several areas. I might comment, but NPS never listens to anyone anyway.
Call me crazy, but actually the outcome of an EA or EIS is sometimes, but not always, very, very heavily influenced by the number of comments recived on a NEPA document, and on what the body and substance of those comments recommend or propose. I would refer you to the outcome of the EA that the NPS did on it's proposed closure of the Fishing Bridge Camgrgound in Yellowstone. The dust from that took decades -- and I do mean decades -- to settle.
Then there was the proposed removal of Camp 4. Different process used to combat the proposal, Section 106 of the NHPA, but similar to NEPA in the strategies employed by the interest groups -- in this case, the climbing community vs. the NPS. Of course, that one was a bit different; the NPS really did want to vanish C4 and they were simply out-manuevered. Thank God for people like Armando Menocal and Duecy and I think Ken and all the other folks I don't know who worked for us all on that one.
Regardng Half Dome. If the NPS received, say, 10,000 comments recommending the cables stay in some way or another, and another 250,000 comments demanding the cables go, they'd be gone in a heartbeat. But the flip will probably be more likely -- they're gonna get a gazillion comments saying don't even think about it. And 5 will get you 50 the park managers already know this. They have no genuine expectation that the cables will ever go away. I'm betting the California SHPO would have something to say about that. They just need to do NEPA in order to formalize and ratify a new NEPA compliant decision before they can consider the current stopgap permit system a done deal and part of the park's formal, NEPA compliant management and regulatory framework.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:34am PT
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the NPS really did want to vanish C4 and they were simply out-manuevered.
indeed. and they almost managed it, like they did with the indians. for awhile, at least.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:37am PT
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^^^ bob's comment is worth reposting because the lawsuits are coming.
the big drivers on both sides of this issue come from outside of the park. wilderness advocates pushing to shut the thing down entirely, and the folks making money off tourists who want to max the attraction.
just a cluster. the lottery is coming. we're going to get the worst of both worlds.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:43am PT
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Yep Kerwin. You can bet your bottom dollar those guys in park management wish George Anderson had never been born.
Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Somebody's gonna be pissed. At least at that point the good folks in Yosemite can just pass it off to the NPS Solicitor's office and get on with day-to-day ops.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:44am PT
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This picture from the article CAN'T be real..... can it?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:49am PT
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It's all to real. The NPS should have declared that thing a Utility Corridor when they were drawing their wilderness boundary maps.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:55am PT
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Given that the Sierra Club strongly supported the placement and then replacement of the 'cables', it may be fun to watch them try to explain that away. Their sins against climbers come home to roost.
But yes, whatever the NPS does seems likely to not please everyone, if not displease some, and it wouldn't be surprising if it ended up in court.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jan 30, 2012 - 01:56am PT
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BVP, I agree. Removal of the cables would be an adverse effect not easily mitigated under the NHPA, so that alone would bump it up to an EIS, which also will never happen. But, NPS could manage the cables as any other park feature, like the Tuolumne Grove or El Cap, and not do an EA at all, but they chose to. Without mitigation for their admitted unavoidable adverse impacts to the Wilderness Act, I see litigation ahead. Also, their EJ analysis is absent but applicable with the price they propose; it is high enough to be a deterrent, and they need to assess that.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:04am PT
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Jesse, I'm guessing the biggest reason they're doing an EA is because they've decided a quota-based permit system is the only plausible solution, and they HAVE to do an EA on a new permit system. My guess is the current system was, like, put in the superintendent's compendium or something as an emergency visitor safety/resource management thing with the understanding that an EA was pending, but I really don't know. Haven't followed YOSE issues in decades.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jan 30, 2012 - 02:29am PT
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/29/yosemite-half-dome-plan_n_1240217.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
"At the end of the day, if the visitors and users of wilderness aren't willing to make sacrifices to preserve the wilderness character of these areas, then we just won't have wilderness. We'll have some Disney-fied version of it," said George Nickas, executive director of Wilderness Watch.
Options (include) removing the cables that hikers use to pull themselves up the 45-degree final climb, rendering it inaccessible to all but experienced climbers.
Nickas calls them "handrails in the wilderness," and says his agency might sue to have them removed if park officials don't choose that option.
"There is often an attempt by agencies to make wilderness all things to all people, and they can't do that and still be wilderness," he said.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Jan 30, 2012 - 04:02am PT
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No need to "put (them) in" - - the Death Slabs, and East Ledges are primed and ready for tourist traffic.
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gimmeslack
Trad climber
VA
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Jan 30, 2012 - 07:28am PT
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Having recently walked from Tuolomne to the valley (JMT blissfully devoid of people!), it occurs to me what a different (wilderness) experience it is in contrast to driving in by auto. I would argue that what really needs to be done is for all road access to be terminated. No more tourons gawking and no more driving to the base of el cap. Humpin' those wall bags an extra 20mi. builds character, I've heard...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jan 30, 2012 - 09:09am PT
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I've never climbed half Dome by the cables, but their existence allows many less physically-gifted individuals than the "elitists" demanding that they be removed to achieve the summit. This statement of mine also "begs the question" of whether or not to make the summit wheelchair accessible.
Regardless of these Gedenken experiment thoughts, the cables are THERE and there are compelling legal arguements against their removal.
Custom and Practice. An easement. These are points a lawyer for any advocate against removal. I'm not a lawyer, but these points seemed to jump out at me, being somewhat experienced in land use issues.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Jan 30, 2012 - 09:55am PT
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The cables have allowed hundreds of thousands of non-climbers to "climb" a major formation (ever use a fixed rope?) and thus to identify to some degree with climbers and their summits, plus have the adventure of their lives.
It could be worked out to have some sort of low-tech token system at the base of the cables. No more tokens? Wait for someone to come down. Eliminates all the reservations nonsense and encourages alpine starts. Have a ranger go up there every once in a while to ticket people who went up with no token. People will always break rules so that's not a valid objection.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 30, 2012 - 10:50am PT
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If the USA was more like Europe, there would be a gondola ride to the top.
The concept that people climbing Halfdome deserve a wildness experience is flawed. It's just too popular. Thus it should be engineered to meet the needs of the many.
If someone want's a wildness experience they only need to wander in the general direction of The Clark Range, just SE of the HD trail by a couple of miles.
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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Jan 30, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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The rock climbing sans cables is 5.6, not 4th class. Lets not sand-bag to deeply here. For comparison it is similar to the last pitch of South Crack on Stately Pleasure Dome. Yes, you are correct, Tuolumne climbers in sticky rubber approach shoes can climb it AS 4th class. I am all for taking down the cables. As far as a green cam goes for protection a little sketchy, I have used them in drill holes in limestone quarry they unexpectedly pull out. But the brown and blue tri-cams fit and hold perfectly.
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Trad Climber
Trad climber
Alexandria, VA
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Jan 30, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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The trails to the top of Nevada have guard rails, whole sections hacked out of the granite, and bridges over the rivers. Is the NPS suggesting the removal of any of those engineered facilities? Note how every option the NPS put forward was to limit access or do nothing.
While I wouldn't want to see a cable or via ferratas up much else in the US, I don't see how the NPS can take this opportunity away from the millions who would love to experience the top of Half Dome someday. If the NPS feels compelled to mitigate the risk of rush hour on the cables, then install a third cable a few feet to the right and add two more lanes of traffic.
On a similar note, I went up Triple Direct this past June and was on the upper part of the Nose for the first time in 26 years. There were no gear belays at all, and the experience felt a lot like the photo of the cables at the beginning of this thread ..... While the experience was dramatically different than my last time on the route, I'm glad I had the opportunity to show up, wait three days for the rain to stop, and then jump on it with everybody else.
That's a lot more than I can say about another high-demand, NPS managed resource. Several kayaking friends of mine and I spent years and years on the private trip lottery for the Grand Canyon... and never made it.
We should be careful what we wish for as the beautiful classic climbs may experience a fate similar to the Half Dome cables in the not so distant future.
P.S. Don't forget to join or renew your Access Fund membership. We need it more than ever.
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