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Gene
climber
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By complicating an anchor, you can add failure modes that you don't see or don't understand, and you can also miss single modes of failure that your cluge-o-lette has blinded you to.
+1
g
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Regarding butterflies, Brian said:
I do the twist then through the middle method. Is the hand wrap method faster/easier?
Hand wrap is easier for me... it's the twist thing that freaks ME out
:-)
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Gene
climber
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Catastrophic anchor failure (CAF) is very rare – we must be doing something right.
Examples of CAF that I can remember:
Recent JT accident – but other factors were involved.
DNB many years ago
The three who were killed rapping from Sickle many, many years ago.
I’m sure there are more.
The number of fatalities due to CAF is miniscule compared to rappelling accidents, forgetting to tie into the rope &/or checking the harness, and general brain farts.
g
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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....how one can mess up a clove hitch. It is one of the simplest and fastest knots to tie, albeit a hitch rather than a knot.
A clove hitch is easy to manage and quick to deploy once you're at the anchors or after you've set up your "love nest".
Easy cheesy Japanesee...
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Rokjox,
I have to say it. You are an idiot. Well documented. You prove it every post. I'm an idiot as well for even entering into the conversation with you. :-}
It is clear that loads increase in an unsafe way when you don't extend pieces to lower the angle. Surely we have progressed past using the death triangle comparison. Does anybody not know this?
Your post says there is not point in equalization and each piece placed must be absolutely bomber. Unfortunately this is not always possible. If all the pieces in your anchors are totally bomber why not use only one piece?
"If each anchor can't hold the weight/impact individually, you do NOT have a redundant anchor. And I couldn't give a damn HOW you tie them together, equalization doesn't work at all nearly as well as the theory suggests."
Granted equalization is not perfect but it is a lot better than nothing!
"Some of those things (above) are equalizing anchors that if one leg DOES fail, between the extension AND the shock loading, NONE of the other anchors are going to hold either."
This statement is flat out wrong! If one leg fails it dissipates energy that will help the other legs hold.
"Damn, too complicated is right." "I think you guys are making this sh#t WHAY too screwy for real life. Much less when you are half passed out and/or in a hurry."
Complicated? Too slow? Cordelettes, equalletes, equalized rope, or using slings all seem to work fine once you have used them a few times. Then again maybe it's because I'm "not half passed out".
Erik
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gavilanz
Trad climber
Davis, Ca
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Might be worth adding a note here about the belay set up illustrated in the link in the original post and the video. While it looks sound and easy to set up, it would muddle things up if partners are not swapping leads on a multi-pitch route. I am a proponent of using the rope for anchors, but most of my multi-pitch climbing of late has me on the sharp end for every pitch so out of necessity a cordelette and slings form the bulk of my anchors. I usually clove into a couple of my anchor pieces as well.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think Rokjox is mostly right. Equalization is a lovely idea but you can't get it in practice with a three-point anchor. More or less any way you manage to tie three points together is probably going to be good enough most of the time. Every now and then it will not be; I think I've heard about total anchor failure about once every ten years, and no one knows whether some fancier rigging would have made a difference. On the other hand, most climbers have never had their anchors tested by a severe impact and so have an expertise based on...well, on nothing. The claim that they've been doing this way for X years and are still around might mean nothing more than that they've been building anchors adequate for body weight all this time.
When anchor points line up, I think sequential clove-hitching is fine. When anchor points are spread horizontally, the method of mine linked upthread is as effective as any and probably more effective than most in terms of distributing the load. And I am perplexed about comments about complexity. You make an overhand knot for a power point, then four clove hitches in sequence. It is hard to imagine anything much simpler, it is totally transparent to check, it is far more adjustable than any of the other systems, and it works universally for everything---you don't have to reinvent the wheel for each new configuration. That's an example of something that meets KISS standards, not violates them.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not selling anything here. I didn't post that picture, the OP did. I'm comfortable with a broad range of anchor rigging tactics, and I don't think I have ever said a word to anyone I've climbed with about what they set up, except for beginning climbers who want and need advice (remembering, of course, that my "expertise" is subject to the same caveats I mentioned above).
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Given that we don't see dead bodies littering the bases of cliffs nation wide, How important is this subject?
Tie an 8 knot, clove hitch, clove hitch, a sling to another cam or nut, looks good, On Belay! Climb When Ready!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Mark summarizes this topic very nicely. Where are the bodies? Remember that in nearly all cases involving a leader or a second falling there are other points of protection between the belayer and climber. Rarely (almost never) is there great force put on the belay anchor. There is always some force (body weight) put on a rap anchor. More commentary should be directed to rap anchors than belay anchors.
Interesting that people are much more frugal about rap anchors than belay anchors when rap anchors are much more important. Oh....I forgot, you have to leave rap anchors behind.
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Zander
climber
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Hey surfstar,
I've sort of moved on from NOOB status. Now I'm currently at NOOB with two red stripes. Of course, I still have opinions based on my increasing knowledge. I've been climbing ten years and have in the last few started using the rope tie in most of the time. Before I slightly expand on Prods clear instructions let me say a couple of things.
Most of the guys posting on this thread are, like, Bad To The Bone, which means they barely remember when they didn't know a damn thing. But I do. It was last week.
Hire a guide a couple of times, one who will let you lead at least on the second time. I climbed with a guide once a year the first five years I was climbing, twice with Karl who is often on this very site. You cannot learn what you will learn from these sessions on Supertopo. Or get one of the other guys on this thread to be you mentor. They will happier and more lucid when they are climbing.
The way you rig the belay is less important than getting in a couple of good pieces of pro.
So here we go. . .
You climb to where you are going to set up the anchor. You look for the very best place to put in a piece of pro and you put it in. The you give it a tug. Then you wiggle it up and down a few times. Then you give it a bigger tug. Then you look at it again. It has to be right. If it the correct height to be the lowest piece in your anchor you clip right in with the clove hitch. When you tie in with the rope, you will be tying in low to high. If this first piece is too high- the second best location for pro is lower, you clip to it as if you were still climbing. You are still on belay after all. Now you get the lowest piece in just right and clove hitch to it. Adjust the clove hitch so you are standing as you will be when you start belaying. Then clove hitch to the first piece you put in. Maybe use a locker. Adjust the clove hitch so there is as little slack as possible between the two pieces when you lean back to belay. Call out off belay. If you are any of the other guys on this thread you are probably done. If you are me you start looking for a third location a bit higher. Once you are sure it is good, tie into it with a figure eight or another clove hitch. Now you look up the next pitch and if you decide it is protectable you are done. If you decide there is a good chance your partner is going to take a major whipper. Start looking for a place to put in pro below the lowest piece that will work for an upward pull. Tie this piece to your lowest piece if possible or the second piece if not. You'll probably have to use a clove hitched sling.
Try to avoid putting the first clove hitch on a piece that you will later move or will not be the lowest piece. That is the first step to a major cluster-funk.(Donini is down there and you don't want him to need to wait.) For me that means get clipped in to the best piece possible so you don't need to worry about taking a leader fall.
Report back how it goes.
Z
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Why do rap anchors fail? Probably the most common scenario is if the anchor is singular, and fails - no redundancy. Second, if slings fail - often old, weathered slings. Third, rappeler screw up - loss of control, for one reason or another.
By nature, rappel anchors are easier to equalize - you need only provide for loading from a small range of angles. Their failing because they're not equalized may not be a common issue.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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I'd guess the majority of deaths from rapping are going off the end of the rope, trying to retrieve a stuck rope and taking the long ride when it gets un-stuck, and knot failure.
One of my pet peeves is people backing up tat, but not cutting out the old rotted slings. If it's so ratty you don't trust it, remove it, don't just add a 3rd or 4th sling.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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And why do people rap on old webbing or single anchors? Because, perish the thought, They can't leave that gleaming (expensive) cam behind. Rap anchors are, by many orders of magnitude, more important than belay anchors, but you don't get much chatter about them here. I am working on a thread to address that!
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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At least yours are real. Imaginary sh#t is rampant here.
The "C-H" is light. And has been for quite a while. Easy day route.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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starting to wonder why more climbers don't die, and I do not mean you for asking the question, i mean for some of the answers here...
whew!
get a knot book, learn the bowline on a bight,
and a butterfly knot.
i was never a fan of clove hitches...
edit: cloves are not positive, and impossible to undo after loading... not what you want in your system... a great knot is exactly right every time, and can be undone easily, but not accidentally.
so use the right knot for the job at hand, tie in with an 8, but choose the knot for the anchor based on the site,,, and a bowline on a bight with you on one end should at least be tried as an alternative for some situations.
get Mountaineering the Freedom of the Hills in your hands, and learn principles, not how to tie this particular setup...
then anticipate all directions of pull, control the possibilities with your brain, locate knots, thats right, Choose not just which knot to use, but where it shouild be.. you do not want a loaded knot scrubbing across a knob, when it coud be above a dish.. rope wear acceletes on a tensioned radius... grab largo's anchor book.. practice making anchors... learn some more.
and also figure anyone that writes "bite" when they mean bight, might not be the best source for anchor management
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Cloves are fine. I've got a clove deadlocked on a biner, I dare you to get it off without a knife. It held a great fall.
Slippy? Not so much.
Oh, BTW, Rokyguy? Give it up...everyone HAS to know that you're well read, but still full of sh#t.
No imagination. Poor bastard.
F*#k you back, tough guy. You're a familiar. Internet Crap slinger.
Real dipsh#t. I've seen your type. They are legion.
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R.B.
Trad climber
47N 122W
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Old schoolers like me use both the figure 8 and clove hitches on anchors.
Just tie and clip one figure 8 (usually into the top peice in the cluster fuk) and everything else below that can be equalized with slings, cordettes, and clove hitches. The fig. 8 is an insurance policy knot that you know WILL never fail or slip. Have one, and you are good to GO!
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Oh my! Did the moron just out fish the turd?
Ha ha ha ha!
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 10, 2011 - 01:05am PT
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Just so much blah blah blah.
You don't strike me as one in contact with the World.
Opportunistic hanger on is more accurate.
Or light. You're mostly just light with a large helping of pure bullshit in sheep's clothing. Hehehe. That's a joke just for me. Unless you get it. I don't care.
Go away now. Punk. Cuz you suck. And we(the larger World) KNOW it.
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