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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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So let us not just think only of ourselves, this is a very popular highly traveled climb. Probably ranks up there as the top 10 busiest climb during the peak season.
Selfishness and false pride and a sense of prima dona may over take our normally coherent selves.
Routes like this, Central pillar of Frenzy, should be left alone from such incoherent self importance. We should make a more concentrated effort chopping the anchors of our false sense of understanding that tie us down to our real freedoms.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 14, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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The climbing above where the normal CP traverses off left--that's some really prime rock, with thre or four great pitches up to the U-Shaped bowl. Amazes me that more folks never push on to the Bowl, but bail after 5 or 7 pitches.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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People chop bolts for numbers of reasons. Some noble, some mad, some inbetween.
Some may chop bolts to be "Important" since they don't send hard enough to be high profile otherwise. Some may replace bolts to be important too, or at least feel like they are contributing to the community somehow.
I don't know Zach, but when I hear about chopping one of the most popular trade routes in the valley, I start to suspect it's really public service.
Peace
karl
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 14, 2006 - 03:22pm PT
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Sounds like he wants to dictate how everyone else climbs. Chopping popular routes, insisting people top out, telling NorCal's buddy he shouldn't be leading Lunatic.
Lame.
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James
Social climber
My Subconcious
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Jan 14, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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The number of people who place bolts far out those who chop them. Greg Barnes or Nanook's latest rebolting projects aren't newsworthy yet removal of unneeded bolts is? Removing bolts in a clean fashion is a public service.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 14, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
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Hey John, the reason that nobody climbs those pitches above the traverse off is that you whacked the 'free' root to its death-- At least that's the way I remember it.
TL,C--Roger
BTW, did you you, Jim and Billy climb up to the Kat walk or rap off?
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:01pm PT
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Hey James, I am not trying to pick on you, but I think that your comment mixes up some important distinctions.
Replacing old bolts is not the same as adding new ones. (Figuring out which are the original bolts is sometimes very hard--Greg is very careful, even if others are not--and if someone screws it up the first time it can be almost impossible to figure it out.)
Adding bolted belay stations and bolted rap stations on popular routes with heavy traffic is not the same as adding bolts to the middle of hard aid pitches or turning a trad climb into a sport route.
After fifty years of bolt chopping--the first I am aware of (by reading Roper, since I am permanently 26) is the Lost Arrow in 1956. Bolts come and go based on making these distinctions, even if it is often a close call or disputed.
There are a lot of issues with merit to argue about, but over simplifying it doesn't address the reasons that placing and removing bolts is so problematic.
Oh, Happy New Year. How the recovery going?
Best, Roger
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ThomasKeefer
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:09pm PT
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If you look around on rc.com, it is easy to find the stories of the mad chopper from Connecticut. Things have happened back an forth in this on going saga of this dick chopping entire areas in New England because he had decided years back that CT would remain bolt free forever and then people put bolts where needed who were from out of state. This dude travelled to that persons state (normally sections of RI or Mass) and systematically chopped entire areas. People out there pass around info about this guys car and photos of him and they give him a roughin up every once in a while. In fact, once this dude returned from some of his 'community service project' to find a line of bolts drilled right through the hood of his car! Funny stuff.
Chopping bolts on valley trade routes is really borderline vandalism. The routes were established the way that they were for a reason- or perhaps they became what they are for a reason. The climbing on most of those routes is amazing but it is equally amazing on obscurities as well. If you want to avoid bolts and the like I would also assume that you want to avoid people crowding 'your crag'. To remove bolts from trade routes is f*#king yourself over since by doing so, you will remove 'tourons in your park' from sticking to those routes and leaving the rest of 'your park' for yourself.
BTW, was not the tattle taling approach taken to remove PTPP after his little incident a few years back....??? Despite what my mom told me when I was three, perhaps there is some merit to it.
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
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I've done Serenity/Sons of Yesterday a few times and with so many crowds wanting to do the route it saves a lot of time and hassle to have the those nice carabiner style bolts at the belays. All the belays could be natural but how many parties would actually contiunue on to the summit via Ahwahnee Buttress? I guess I see the same thing with Central Pillar. Most people do the the first five and come down. Sure, it can easily done all natural, but if you chop the bolts it probably would mean people fixing some other nuts, pins, slings, and other assorted mank at the belay spots. I am for leaving things as natural as possible, but since the classic climbs in Yosemite are such a freakin zoo, you might as well leave it be because these routes are climbed so much, they will just be rebolted or left with other mank at the belays in the future. Anyhow, that's my $0.02, Cheers, A.K.
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Jy
Trad climber
California
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Jan 14, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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It seems a waste to chop that first bolt on serenity. That being said the chopping of bolts seems to rarely be consensus based, and that leaves it in the realm of the individual. I am all for leaving a route in the original style it was climbed in. But on serenity, a piton scarred crack, was the bolt really that invasive, as much as Id like to say that I prefer to do a route in good style I kind of liked the bolt anyways.... It seems that onn popular routes where bolt anchors can help to reduce the impacted nature of a climb it would be a pity to chop them. Somebody ought to chat with Zach about this.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 14, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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{Lifting my long grey beard up from the keyboard}
I climbed Serenity Crack in 1983, long before I entered Free Climbing Retirement. I recall it to be a straight-in pin-scarred crack where a piece of pro would be available virtually every move of the way.
Why pray tell would there be a bolt on the first pitch?
Just askin', eh?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Just had some coffee with Zack at the cafe, and no he's not the guy in Blitzos photo. He told me to tell you internet wankers to get a fricken life, hahahaha.
No seriously, he was just trolling those guys at Reeds. He won't be chopping any bolts on Central pillar of Frenzy.
Over and out ..........
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jan 14, 2006 - 06:31pm PT
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If it is indeed the Zach that popped a McNeely then got himself tree-hauled, then I know the guy. We used to hang out at the Terrace employee kitchen when I worked the coffee corner two years ago. His parents live about a quarter mile from my mom's house in Lilburn, Ga.
Anyway, he's a cool kid, if kindy pretentious and cocky. Plus, with any drink in him, he's a bit out of control. I talked to him the day after the tree-hanging business, and, sometime between the punch and the lynching, he got mad and threw his car keys somewhere. He still didn't have them a few days later. I wonder what he did about that.
He'd probably listen to reason about the bolts, at least if someone was there to say "Hey! I'm using these!" Left to himself, he seemed a little unstable.
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briand
Trad climber
bay area
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Jan 14, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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We are also talking about safety. On popular routes like these, there is no reason not to have safe, permentant anchors.
I remember when SC used to have old 1/4 bolts and pins for anchors and was happy to see them replaced.
brian
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Nor Cal
Trad climber
San Mateo
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Jan 14, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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I am not suprised that we were being trolled by him, my buddy Jim is fairly new to the scene and would be easily trolled, like I said I did not hear the central pillar part of the conversation and just took Jim's word (after all he is my buddy)and of course we mentioned it to Karl as we saw him the next day, so here we are.
Thanks goes to Werner for getting to the bottom of this....
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jan 14, 2006 - 08:20pm PT
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Cool, Thanks, Werner.
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Jan 15, 2006 - 11:13am PT
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Well lads,
Interesting debate..glad to hear Mr.Z. has some of his sharper tools still in the shed.
Half of harm that is done in this world
Is due to people who want to feel important. -t.s.elliot
jw
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 11:59am PT
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I cannot help but to tender a response to the post made by 1096
Your post, 1096 (and you are a poltroon for telling stories about people without posting under your real name) is almost completely untrue.
1)I had nothing to do with chopping Serenity Crack.
2)I had never any intention of stealing Ron's or anyone's rope.
3)Ron's rope had been up for more than a week-ask him.
4)Nobody did any yelling--Ron saw us climbing from the road, and hiked up to the base where we talked.
5)Zak and I discussed removing the rope before we saw that it was not an abandoned line like so many other lines that mini-traxioners abandon throughout the park. When we saw that the anchor was made with cams (which no-one would abandon) we decided to leave it in place.
6) the reason I would toss a fixed line is because on numerous crags throughout the park people are fixing lines on one-pitch climbs so they can mini traxion, and then leaving them up sometimes for over a year. This is impact which affects all climbers negatively, since the Tool had a thing about abandoned gear, and I believe we as climbers need to leave as little trace as possible so that we don't have to suffer more regulation at the hands of the Tool. I have no problem with mini-traxioning, but I am offended by there being lines fixed indefinitely on stuff while they become rattier and rattier, making the whole place look like a ghetto, which we as climbers cannot afford to let happen.
7) there was a time when I could get up New D, but whether I can or not is not the issue; the issue is (as above) the impact of unsightly fixed gear at the crags.
I forgive you for your lies, Alias 1096, and hope you will excercise more caution in future before running your keyboard.
Ben Zartman
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Jobee
Social climber
El Portal
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Jan 15, 2006 - 12:15pm PT
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Ben W:
Way to clean up the jingus gossip as well as the junk some of lazier tractioners leave behind.
Best senario: set up, traction, clean it, and go just like any other roped climbing.
No doubt you would float The N.D...if your'e interested next sunny dry day give me jingle...love to get up there with you.
jobee1
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2006 - 01:32pm PT
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My ropes will be everywhere, beware ..... and I'm very lazy too.
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