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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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Blue, you're saying that we should use the same 200 year old, or 2000 year old thinking that's been enshrined in our collective consciousness and that things will get better on their own?
Yeah, I am. It worked for a long time in this country until corruption and greed rooted themselves into the Congress. The Congress no longer serves us. They use us, as taxpayers, to fund their wishes and lobbiests.
Do you observe a whole lot of anything other than what you consider to be the truth and the right way of doing things?
Rephrase that. What do you mean? I know truth. I know what's right. And I know evil and corruption.
You don't see any problems with today and tomorrow? You don't see issues robbing future generation's intellect and creativity? You honestly think that things can't be better for humans?
Things will obviously progress. Without a doubt, in terms of intellect and ingenuity (I don't know about creativity), things will 'advance' and we will gain more knowledge.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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TGT nailed it the first time ...
"There are no new problems, only new permutations."
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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I can think of one new problem. It is now within our ability to destroy all life on this planet.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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"It is now within our ability to destroy all life on this planet."
Been done many many times before.
Nothing new .....
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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For Peoples...It seems like They can't Solve ANY problems with ANY thinking.
Just my .02.
I wonder why. Hmm.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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That's nihilistic thinking Skully ....
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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Yup.
I'm the "Trivialest Nihilist".
(dammit)
Ah, well.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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The principle of “divide and conquer” has been practiced at least since Julius Caesar’s day. If I have 5000 troops and want to conquer a nation with 50,000 troops my best bet is to get 25,000 of my future victims fighting the other 25,000 to a draw. I can then walk in with my 5000 and do as I please.
That is the strategy behind all the polarization here in the US.
And it is working.
Pardon my plebian source, but it is sufficient to the task.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule
In politics and sociology, divide and rule (derived from Latin divide et impera) (also known as divide and conquer) is a combination of political, military and economic strategy of gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into chunks that individually have less power than the one implementing the strategy. In reality, it often refers to a strategy where small power groups are prevented from linking up and becoming more powerful, since it is difficult to break up existing power structures.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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Broaden your horizons, Dear Sully.
Space, as such, is indeed where the frontier lies.
We need our frontiers, don't cha know..........Engage.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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Yeah, I am. It worked for a long time in this country until corruption and greed rooted themselves into the Congress. The Congress no longer serves us. They use us, as taxpayers, to fund their wishes and lobbiests.
Corruption and greed come in the form of powerful bankers who bought all the corporations and then bought votes to get into congress. So, apparently the thinking has evolved to something new which is not working anymore.
Rephrase that. What do you mean? I know truth. I know what's right. And I know evil and corruption.
I think it's healthy to look at other points of view.
Things will obviously progress. Without a doubt, in terms of intellect and ingenuity (I don't know about creativity), things will 'advance' and we will gain more knowledge.
I think we're falling into a dark ages. Deterioration of economy and culture.
DMT said the kids are the future. I agree. As long as they can break free from the hold of MTV's Jersey Shore, Kardashians, Facebook and the super sized, I want it and I want it now culture.
Jstan, great point. Human beings are social creatures by nature, and they stick together. I have this book that I haven't read yet, but it's titled "The Problem with Diversity." I'll have to read it and report back.
I see one theme in a lot of posts and that is that there are no new problems, just new permutations and historic repetition. So, it seems that the problem might be awareness and knowledge of the past. How do we build awareness then, by education? Communication?
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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Long and extensive study of history is vital. The screw ups of politicos over the last few decades or even century is due to historical illiteracy.
Many school history teachers don't get it. They grind history into people.
Will Durant is da Man. An excellent source of history. Not a quick read.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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Annals of Innovation, amazing thinking about how innovation works:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell
Excerpt:
"When Vivek Ranadivé decided to coach his daughter Anjali’s basketball team, he settled on two principles. The first was that he would never raise his voice. This was National Junior Basketball—the Little League of basketball. The team was made up mostly of twelve-year-olds
The second principle was more important. Ranadivé was puzzled by the way Americans played basketball. He is from Mumbai. He grew up with cricket and soccer. He would never forget the first time he saw a basketball game. He thought it was mindless
Ranadivé looked at his girls. Morgan and Julia were serious basketball players. But Nicky, Angela, Dani, Holly, Annika, and his own daughter, Anjali, had never played the game before. They weren’t all that tall. They couldn’t shoot. They weren’t particularly adept at dribbling.
The team ended up at the national championships. “It was really random,” Anjali Ranadivé said. “I mean, my father had never played basketball before.”
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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"anyway how does one go about inventing a new word?"
Sometimes they just flow out of error--I used the word "banane" in a paper once, thought it a clever combo of banal and inane.
I didn't get deducted for it, just a big red "?"
:-)
edit: back on topic: Tomorrow's problems CAN be solved with yesterday's thinking--the mystery lies in the depth of yesterday(s) and finding the right solution from it.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:56am PT
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once again, Jstan pretty much nails it. Neo-whateverism, it's all the same old trick.
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gonamok
Trad climber
poway
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Jul 23, 2010 - 03:37am PT
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Its true that those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat its mistakes.
Im reducing my carbon footprint by not exhaling.
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Jul 23, 2010 - 09:50am PT
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Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water
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gonamok
Trad climber
poway
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Jul 23, 2010 - 10:45am PT
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I just got an excellent brain flash. We CAN solve tomorrows problems with yesterdays thinking! All we have to do is wait until tomorrow becomes yesterday, then THINK. Solving yesterdays problems with tomorrows thinking is a bigger can of worms however, and would probably require specalized equipment like those knit shirts they wear on the old star trek TV show.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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Note: The following may sound negative, which the OP asked for not, but actually, I believe this is not a negative outlook. Anyway -
I've come to feeling it's almost certainly "too late" for the current run of homo sapiens. We've screwed the pooch, as the vulgar phrase goes, and as a collective group, I don't think there's any going back. While we all want change, and we hope for a brighter future and turnaround from the path of dissolution we seem bent on, 1) the forces that keep the "machine" running just won't be having any of our "we must reduce consumption, and 2) we have no common consensus on what "the problems" are, nor any will to work together even if we did and 3) we aren't, in general, willing to make personal sacrifices on a scale which WOULD create the change needed.
And I'm not simply referring to "keeping the US at the top of the food chain. We, as a whole, are reaping what we've sown.
Thing I think might help? On a large scale?
 STOP having so many children. I know that is cruel; I know it is. But the range cannot support the growth(global range, all humanity).
This last month it has been unseasonably hot at the Gunks, and with, until recently, little to no precip. I watched, daily, as first the small plants shriveled - the mosses dried, the berries stalled in their ripening - to seeing trees up to 30 feet tall drop ALL their leaves(in early July!) and hearing of people's wells going dry, to what continues even though wev've gotten steady, heavy rains for the last 2 weeks - oaks have dropped/are dropping their acorns. Without a massive influx in mechanical irrigation, local farmers would have lost their entire crops.
Water has been commoditized. Through damming, and through the damned bottling of it. Without water - we die, and as things stand, the world's potable water has nearly all been roped in by the water wranglers. Not saying our (US) society will evolve into anarchy, but....if that DID occur.... the war for water would be, I think, the pivotal point.
So - stop having kids because, if we don't, the growth is unsustainable and we damn them to a hell we can't being to understand. Even at that....I think it is too late, so why would anyone (who believes this ship may be too big for the harbor to make a turnaround) want to subject someone they would love to such a life of depraved suffering.
But we CAN do things NOW, on a personal level, that WILL make the world WE live in a better place. Forget this "high thinking " of what scientists could/should do - unless WE scientists of the calibre that can institute such actions. Take ACTION at the level you CAN affect change. Sorry if that isn't as glamorous as saving the planet, but.... anyone talking about what the government ought to be doing, really ought to take a critical look at how they run their own, personal space.
Be NICE to others. Be helpful. SEE your side of the street in the negative altercations, instead of only what the other did. And then - work to stop doing that! Because likely it's a recurring pattern.
Will you solve global warming, end the warring, or turn this hulking world economy away from the maggot-writhing pit of sh#t that it is? Nooooo.... probably not. Not within YOUR lifetime, anyway. But YOUR world WILL be a more pleasant place, and you will have people in YOUR life who are positive, kind and caring. And if you do have children, they will learn that kindness *is* the way to be in this world. And as the population decimates itself, those little seeds of kindness just might be the ones that survive.
Every cycle gets a winter, some sort of rest period, before rebirth and rejuvination. WHY would our earth - grandest cycle of all that most of us can comprehend, be any different?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Wow, thanks BooDawg!
I read a very informative article that said, the biggest thing you could do to reduce your overall footprint was to make a major effort to consume only things that are created within 50 miles of your house.
That means, meat, veggies, building products, etc.
Not totally possible for everything, since our whole universe seems to be built around trucking, trains, shipping, aircraft.
But it didn't used to be that way, and if history is any teacher at all, we know that there is no such thing as sustainable growth forever, and that no civilization has gone on prospering forever. It WILL return to a more basic world someday. How much do we want to prepare our children for the inevitable do more for yourself mentality?
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