help with harness

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habitat

climber

grass pass

May 25, 2010 - 10:16pm PT

Brendan,

Coz has stated that the belay loop is not bar-tacked through; and that there is also a problem with the tie-in loops, something I admit I don't quite understand. Since you are from SLC, and you appear to be defending their gear, can you respond to this?

I am interested in any info, as I climb in a BD primrose.

Thanks.

edit: Tripled-over webbing can be held together with duct tape and still hold any force generated in a climbing fall. Can you explain what you mean by this? Sorry if I sound ignorant; thanks.

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

May 25, 2010 - 10:27pm PT

coz,
I believe you are incorrect in you statement of BD's quality and safety.

YOUR FIRST STATEMENT IS WRONG WHEN YOU SAY "their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most."

You appear to be ignorant of the fact that there is an extra layer sewn over the bar tacking on the outside of the belay loop to protect it from wear.

habitat,
Take a second look at you harnesses belay loop and I think you we see what I'm talking about.

coz,
Your second comment is unclear, please elaborate with a better description and picture or two.

"Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail..."

Do you have an axe to grind with Black Diamond that we should know about?

I know BD is not perfect. I do not work for or represent BD in any way and at the moment I am not even using one of BD's harnesses.
Erik

habitat

climber

grass pass

May 25, 2010 - 10:38pm PT

labrat,

I did as you suggested and it does appear that the belay loop has three "layers" to it, so conceivably, yes, it could be that the first two layers are bar-tacked together, with the third layer sewn over those, perhaps to protect the stitching, which seems like a sound idea.

Thanks for your feedback, appreciate it.

slobmonster

Trad climber

OAK (nee NH)

May 25, 2010 - 10:41pm PT

D has one of the weakest harnesses on the market, their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most.

Yeah, umm, no.

They are (indeed) sewn differently, but they are not weaker.

[This is totally n00bish discussion, but whatever.]

Take a piece of webbing, long enough to make a loop twice upon itself. Tape it shut. Seriously, just masking tape. In other words, mimic the basic construction of the belay loop on the harness you're peering at critically.

Try to pull it apart.

Oh wait, you can't? Yeah I thought so.

BD sews theirs differently, true. It's on purpose. The extra outer webbing covers the bar tacks (somewhat hidden) inside. As such, the stitching cannot be abraded if the belay loop is oriented with the naked side out.

mark miller

Social climber

Reno

May 25, 2010 - 10:57pm PT

I've had multiple hip bone grafts and the scars on my hips really test a harness...The metolius safetec and Waldo are the ticket.

msiddens

Trad climber

Mountain View

May 25, 2010 - 11:04pm PT

I'm a huge Misty Mountain Cadillac fan but recently ventured to the UK. Happy with the new Wild Country Elite Adjustable...quite nice and not to $$

http://tinyurl.com/ygbt3fa

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

May 25, 2010 - 11:07pm PT

Re: Werner's comment.
C'mon, somebody out there from Petzl or Misty Mountain has to read
this thread.

Give John a FREE harness. The guy will get you rad pictures
using it, no doubt!!!!!

habitat

climber

grass pass

May 25, 2010 - 11:27pm PT

Okay...just got out my BD primrose, Metolius safetec, and Arc'teryx something-or-other.

All have a three-layer belay loop construction.

Metolius and Arc'teryx are sewn through all three layers.

BD is not.

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

May 26, 2010 - 09:29am PT

Let us put this misinformation that Coz is spreading to rest with real, scientific results.

http://207.135.152.14/scene/beta/qc_kp_archive.php#102706

After the only known modern belay loop failure (not a BD harness) KP tested various forms of wear including cutting many of the bar tacks. They held 5000 lbs.

A belay loop cut 90% of the way through holds over 700 lbs.

All harness belay loops on the market hold pretty much the same. 5000 lbs.

I don't work for BD but I climb on their gear. Some of their gear sucks, some kicks ass. When you start calling gear unsafe without any testing data to back it up you have crossed a line.

-brendan

habitat

climber

grass pass

May 26, 2010 - 11:04am PT

A few excerpts from the article:

provide some super-unofficial non-complete experimental data on belay loops

Some Unofficial, Incomplete, One Data Point, for Curiosity Only Experiements

By no means are these experiments complete or conclusive as there are many variables that were not, but could be looked at like: belay loop construction (2 tacks vs. 4 tacks, protective non-structural layer over top of the tacks),

I don't know my way around a sewing machine. I will continue to use my BD harness because it is the safest one I have, being that it is the newest.

We need to be careful what we call science. One data point?! I don't believe what was presented in this article can pass for science.

And just going by the comments posted here, it seems the industry norm (if there is one) is a three-layer construction sewn through all three layers. Like I said, I wouldn't know, maybe that is overkill, and maybe BD has found a simpler and equally bomber way.

But I will be paying more attention to construction the next time I need a harness. Thanks all for the info. Always learning something new here!

couchmaster

climber

pdx

May 26, 2010 - 11:29am PT

Coz said BD has one of the weakest harnesses on the market, their belay loop is not bar tacked all the way through, making it much weaker than most. Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail...I would never use one.

Bullsh#t. Black Diamond tests the crap out of their harness's, they are very strong and secure, and there's never been a belay loop fail in the field that I've ever heard of. AND you ain't going to see one either. For the record, I don't work for - or even like, Black Diamond harness's. but that's sh#t slagging Coz and very misleading. I own a Misty Mt Cadillac, 2 Sonics and 2 Metolius Waldos, but I just prefer the Misty Mt and Metolius over the BD, for the fit. The Metolius Waldos in particular are way cush and comfy!

The Wolf

Trad climber

Martinez, CA

May 26, 2010 - 11:35am PT

CAMP Quartz CR3: I bought one of these based on Chris Mac's review. Hands down the most comfortable harness I've ever owned.

rectorsquid

climber

Lake Tahoe

May 26, 2010 - 11:36am PT

...turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope.

Isn't that true for just about ever harness out there? I would guess that the safetech doesn't have this problem but I'm asking because I think that every other harness is the same in this way.

Dave

handsome B

Gym climber

SL,UT

May 26, 2010 - 11:41am PT

It seems you are missing the big picture. Belay loops are incredibly strong and overbuilt. They will never fail unless incredibly misused.
By abrading the bar tacks many of them were destroyed. I can't imagine any real world scenario where the difference between 4,000 lbs and 5,000 lbs holding force on a belay loop could matter. Your vaporized bones and organs would ooze out of the harness well before it broke.

Returning to the topic:

Any modern harness produced today is incredibly bomber. Choose the one that fits your needs the best.

lamadera

Trad climber

New Mexico

May 26, 2010 - 11:44am PT

Their tie in point, turns into a daisy chain pocket, if you do not clip your belay device to the loop of your rope. It could fail...I would never use one.

Huh? Then where are all the harness failures? I agree this is pure BS without some facts. I also would prefer a Misty Mtn since they don't seem to wear out as fast as a BD, but they don't fit me as well (they have had some weird sizing in the past). My BD fits perfect and I have not had my tie in points "turn into a daisy chain pocket" after a fall. Clip my belay device to the loop of my rope? WTF

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

May 26, 2010 - 11:57am PT

jeez - SO much BS around here. Chief - you aren't even referencing the right picture from the QC site. Did you even read it? Those are each different samples for different tests (50%, 75%, 90% cut thru)...you don't even show the one that BD says actually had the bar tacks cut. Quit freaking out and pay attention...jeez.

I'm assuming you aren't just spraying false info because you've got a chip on your shoulder for BD...

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

May 26, 2010 - 12:03pm PT

If you do a lot of OW, I'd say the BD belay loop with the bartacks protected from abrasion is arguably the safest construction. As for strength,

1. There have never been, as far as I know, any comparative tests of belay loop strength.

2. Asserting that the BD construction is "the weakest" seems to be based on an assumption that tacking through all three layers is significantly stronger than tacking through two. Is this assumption true?

3. If bar-tack abrasion weakens the belay loop, then even if it turns out that a fully stitched-through loop starts out stronger, it might end up weaker after some use. Once again, we don't actually have any data that I know of, but this possibility makes the claim for stitching-through even less certain.

4. No one seems to be complaining about the fact that the Petzl harnesses only have two bar tacks in the belay loop while most others have four. So which is "stronger," the Petzl sewn all the way through with only two tacks, or the BD with four tacks sewn through two layers and protected from abrasion?

By and large, criteria for selecting harnesses boil down to personal preferences and idiosyncracies. As harnesses get lighter and lighter, their safe lifetime probably decreases, and we all know the tragic consequences of pushing a harness far beyond its appropriate lifetime. But for those who retire their harnesses before their appearance scares old ladies and children, my guess is that this wrangling over stitching is completely irrelevant.

jfs

Trad climber

Upper Leftish

May 26, 2010 - 12:08pm PT

coz, i'd guess people are freaking out because the issue is...uh... fairly important to them. You make an unsubstantiated claim - YOUR HARNESS IS DANGEROUS!!! - and people pay attention if they have reason to trust you. They do...you've been around climbing a while.

You make the claim based on an observed construction methodology and NOT on any data. Your facts are simply - BD does X...but you have no data to support that it is actually LESS SAFE, as you claim. That's BS.

Frankly, I figured a guy that's been around the climbing world as long as you would have a better head on his shoulders. Disappointing.