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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 21, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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Well, Cosmic seems pretty hip, and he belays...
I once climbed the irregular NWF of half dome with someone who sometimes posts here ( and I out weigh by 40). I lead the last pitch and belayed her up with a hip belay, great stance and no anchor. When she got up to me, this 5.12 climber looked at me and asked,
"Is that safe?"
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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May 21, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
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Jaybro could belay me on anything with a hip belay and I wouldn't even question if it was safe.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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May 22, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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Hip belay was the thing in the '70s. Totally safe because you have to pay attention. Super fine control. Then came the Stich Plate. Suddenly you had a fool-proof locked off system with the potential spare time for one hand to do other things...like... smoke, stuff.
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john hansen
climber
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May 22, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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78 to 84 hip belay
84 to 89 figure eight
Never made it past that..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 05:52am PT
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Took a few years before I'd trust a stitch plate.
A hip belay on moderate ground from experienced climbers is bomber.
This is still more of the same [mis]perception. There's basically no ground that a hip belay isn't just as solid as any device and no fall I'd be prepared to hold with a device that I wouldn't be just as comfortable and prepared to hold with a hip belay, on any terrain. The distinction is pretty much just one of a minor convenience issue from my perspective.
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redrocker
climber
Las Vegas, Nevada
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May 22, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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I recently ADDED a hip belay to an ATC-XP high friction side belay when my partner was leading a hard, runout pitch on one of those new 8.9mm cords.
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lars johansen
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Didn't Clint Eastwood use a hip belay without an anchor on the Eiger Sanction?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 22, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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Everyone should learn how to hip belay properly. Call it an "insurance policy" if you will....
The old 1960s rock climbing schools run by the Colorado Mountain Club and Rocky Mountain Rescue in Boulder all included catching a 150# free-falling bucket of concrete by means of a hip belay as a graduation requirement. Leather gloves and a heavy leather belay pad were used, but it clearly demonstrated the effectiveness of the technique.
Clearly, there are now more "sophisticated" and less painful methods available. I prefer the BD style devices as there seems to be a more traditionalist feel to them, over the Gri-Gri.
None of these devices are any better than their user's attention to detail and attention to belaying, however. My tiny little 100# companion on many climbs, Anne, caught me many times on some real whippers using only a figure eight.
Added as an after thought in edit: As described below, I had to catch Bob as I wasn't even tied in yet. I'd had to leapfrog him on a pitch w/o the rack to reach a decent belay ledge. As he was coming up p.3 of Stettner's he had a cramp and I took over the lead on an emergency basis. After I got to a secure ledge with my butt solidly behind a huge flake, I brought him up. He was about 20 feet to the right through no pro when for some reason decided to scrounge an O/R piton about 10 feet higher. He then proceeded to fall off on class 4 conditions. He went careening backwards headfirst down a steep trough. Therefore, catching him was strictly "self-preservation." This was on Long's Peak, my very first "Alpine Wall" climb!
On the other hand, I caught 6'4'' and 265# Bob LaGrange on a devastating long fall (45 feet) on Stettner's Ledges with only a hip belay. Pain. Ouch. After that, I switched to using a figure eight.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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May 22, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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I learned with a hip belay and tieing in with a bowline on a coil. When I graduated to a harness and a stich, the first few times I had to think, "which way does my brake hand go?" Being so used to it diving between my legs for the hip belay, my initial natural instinct was to go that way with my brake hand on the stich, I figured that one out real quick.
I once saw it happen to another person that was performing a sitting belay, bringing up a second (belaying from the top, did not lead up to the ledge). The brake hand went between the legs with the stich and in an instant, bad rope burns for the belayer and bad 80 foot fall with compound fractures for the second.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 22, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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The major drawback to the hip belay is possible loss of control of the braking hand. If the belayer EVER loses control or lets go the rope--the outcome is NOT nice. I've been dropped a couple times by nuevo belayers on short hard top rope problems. Never climbed with any of them ever again.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 23, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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"Everyone should learn how to hip belay properly. Call it an "insurance policy" if you will...."
Good point Brokedown, it's unfathomable that anyone would not know how to do this.. But there probably are some who haven't done it, yet.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 23, 2010 - 09:58am PT
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The basis of this whole conversation is based upon the Sierra Club published book "Belaying the Leader." Out of print?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 23, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Bottom line it's not so much the system being used but the person using it. Too many climbers are slaves to technology and are lost when a particular device is not available. Everyone should learn to belay and rappel without any of the usual tools. Who knows when you may be in a situation requiring those skills?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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May 23, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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One other point that has been alluded to but not discussed explicitly is that the concept of "the stance" naturally follows from the use of the hip belay.
Those of us that started out that way will usually instinctively assume the most stable position possible no mater the anchor or device used, usually seated with the feet braced on something.
Standing casually with slack in the anchor system you have no backup for unforeseen contingencies.
If the concept of the stance had been understood and employed Woody would still be with us even though everything else in the system had failed.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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May 23, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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I agree with Donini et al. I think present day climbers should even practice the dulfersitz rappel, too. I actually still use the hip belay at times when I have a super fast leader or second who is on easier ground, all in order to keep up with this climber. A well-positioned hip belay is incredibly good and should be part of all climber's skill sets. A hip belay is harder to escape from in an accident situation but it is still available.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
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The basis of this whole conversation is based upon the Sierra Club published book "Belaying the Leader." Out of print?
No, but by coincidence I recently came into possession of a copy of that book. The thread came about after getting tired of some of the comments I've heard about hip belaying from folks who either haven't learned it, or didn't learn a performant version of it.
It, and stancing, which is the other half of the equation, are both essentially lost crafts. At least when you say the word 'belaying' folks know what you mean, whereas if you say 'stancing' its like you're speaking Martian. Good stancing today is more a matter of blind luck or the geometry of the situation forcing someone to adapt rather than something careful considered and established by design.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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May 23, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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All hail the Underhill couple!
Miriam and Robert that is ;)
If you enjoy history and you don't know who they are...
You should !
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R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Lahar
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May 23, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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The most important concept with the hip belay is the direction of a potential fall and the corresponding opposite side of the anchor tether you have to your harness.
If the rope pull force will be upward (such as belaying from the ground) then 9/10 of the time you want the rope Under the tether.
If .... force ... downward (belaying from the top) .... over the tether.
Another key point is proper hand placements so that the belayer always has a hand on the rope AT ALL TIMES. So the "hand-rope" shuffle is important.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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True, if anchored. I'm quite often just stanced and unanchored on easier terrain.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 23, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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We all seem to be saying the same things--belaying is too important to put blind faith in a inanimate technological marvel. Being aware of the direction of pull during a possible fall is first line necessary information, and setting up the belay accordingly only follows logically.
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