What is "Mind?"

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WBraun

climber

Aug 11, 2018 - 09:45pm PT

you should look into sleep research

Yes so true.

The gross materialists are all asleep at the wheel and are sleepwalking in their meat shells masquerading those shells as themselves ......

The gross materialists are NOT awake, mumbling about awareness while sleepwalking during the day, that's why they guess so much and are prisoners of their runaway minds ......

Don Paul

Social climber

Washington DC

Aug 12, 2018 - 05:03am PT

Think of the surface of an expanding balloon.

I am. I'm also thinking of a big bang theory with no big bang. There is something Zen-like about that, I admit. Anyway this has nothing at all to do with the subject "What is Mind" and is a flagrant example of thread drift. I was just trying to help Werner prove his point.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 12, 2018 - 06:02am PT

Maybe you should wear a hat that says: "MAKE WERNER RELEVANT AGAIN".

MH2

Boulder climber

Andy Cairns

Aug 12, 2018 - 06:07am PT

1959: V9 (me . . . now an easy day for a lady)

2018: V16 to V17 (clearly, not me)

Now there is a mind exercise for us climbers.

Bushman

climber

The state of quantum flux

Aug 12, 2018 - 06:08am PT

I just figured it out...
Werner IS angry Buddha

yanqui

climber

Balcarce, Argentina

Aug 12, 2018 - 07:05am PT

I just figured it out...
Werner IS angry Buddha

MikeL

Social climber

Southern Arizona

Aug 12, 2018 - 08:01am PT

jogill: . . . are these the sorts of things you taught business students? My father directed the graduate business school at the University of Georgia in the late 1950s, and I never heard of anything like that in the curriculum.

I suppose you mean with the language I used with you in my post. No.

In the last 5-7 years in the courses I taught, somewhere around 3/4s of the way through a semester course, after presenting all of the theories and principles and concepts of corporate and business strategy, after we had gotten more than knee-deep into Harvard case studies (15-35 pages stories about a company in a moment of time), I would tell the students that all those theories, principles, and concepts don’t *really* exist—but that they facilitate conversations among the cognoscenti and would identify them to others “in the business” as knowledgable. Every class period discussed one of those case studies.

Some students would get offended and angry. For some students the assertion would fall off like water off a duck’s back and mean nothing to them. Perhaps a third of the students would assimilate the assertion and relax and play more with the data in the case studies. That is, it appeared to enable them to unearth implicit assumptions in viewpoints and not assume that all data in the case study were accurate or appropriate. This latter group appeared to be more open to internal contradictions in a case study. I might suggest that the case studies and discussions became more pleasurable and “interesting.”

I should also note, for whatever it’s worth, that in the last decade and a half, women responded more favorably to the post-modern assertion than men.

Last, and with all due respect, I would say that a Bayesian approach to business and corporate strategy will take one just about no where. A Bayesian approach could be a great help in business simulations and in game theory, but in both of those exercises the rules of a program and set-up assumptions end-up *dictating* proper outcomes. In those exercises, things like commitment, entrepreneurship, engagement, and innovation are seen as accidental or exogenous. In my field of study, I came to find that there were no right answers. Some were better than others, and much of those better answers relied upon implementation skills rather than puzzle-solving.

MikeL

Social climber

Southern Arizona

Aug 12, 2018 - 08:14am PT

Ed: ...just eat the steak...

In the movie, that particular character is not presented very favorably.

Any instrumentalist has many behaviors to answer for, as they are all heavily egocentric. I know that philosophically, “self-interest” is considered among many as perfectly moral and enlightened. Capitalistic economics takes that view. So do dictators. There are detractors, however—many who reside here on ST.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Aug 12, 2018 - 09:23am PT

I know MikeL, but then there is Arendt arguing that we must express the very nature of our humanity in the form of thinking, that there are absolute moral choices and we are compelled to make them.

One cannot, in Arendt's view if I understand it, presume that reality "out there" is an illusive construct that does not require attention be paid it. What is the basis of your philosophy's moral and ethical structure? You live in privileged times, you can live your life largely without having to make difficult moral decisions, at least you think so. This renders the philosophical issues moot.

However, our collective lifestyles have consequences for the Earth's environment, and the science on this paints a bleak picture of those consequences when based on our continued practice of those lifestyles. Once again, this will be a deferred moral decision, it is unlikely that these consequences will visit in full force until our generation is gone. If we can ignore the science as just one of many equal narratives about "reality" does that absolve us of our moral decision? Or does it make us complicit through our intention to not think about it?

My use of "just eat the steak" is from a Feynman lecture where he discusses the philosophical question of what makes something "real." It is juxtaposed with the moral choice that Cypher makes, to return to the Matrix, and part of the deal is to "erase" all memory of making this choice, and a "good life," even though he knows it is an illusion.

But we know Cypher is a "bad guy" by our conventional human culture. How do you view it in your philosophy? What is the illusion? The Matrix, which we know to have been constructed, or "reality" which is a perception that we construct? If both are an illusion, what is a "bad guy?"

If you cannot "just eat the steak" your starvation is assured.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Aug 12, 2018 - 09:32am PT

As for Bayesian analysis, there isn't yet a single implementation of the idea, so painting it with such a broad brush, and in particular, parroting the oft made criticism, "you can get anything out of it by putting in the conclusions," of circular reasoning appeals to some religious belief of a particular statistical approach.

You of course know that all statistical approaches require careful thought and analysis, and that a description of that analysis is an important component of describing its results. Same for criticism of a particular approach.

As you might be aware, there are many "objective Bayesian" analyses which seek different ways of describing the "priors" so as not to bias the "posteriors."

However, this criticism of yours is unusually sharply focused, I would have assumed you disdain any such analysis. Obviously you do not like passionate academic debate, the Bayesian/Frequentist wars that have played out in academe certainly always had the air of religious warfare.

Which side are you on?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Aug 12, 2018 - 09:49am PT

I know Werner, and he's not angry.

Also, his spiritual interests are not necessarily Buddhist.

But I speculate that Werner's experiences on YOSAR inform his philosophical commitments.

zBrown

Ice climber

Aug 12, 2018 - 10:53am PT

Rise of The Machines?

Using machine learning, researchers from the University of Pennsylvania found that four dimensions of psychopathology — mood, psychosis, fear and disruptive externalizing behavior — were linked to distinct patterns of connectivity in the brain.

Reputedly looking for ST member subjects for phase II.

https://www.healio.com/psychiatry/practice-management/news/online/%7B3190207d-0771-45cf-b085-740d048ec110%7D/machine-learning-links-brain-connectivity-patterns-with-psychiatric-symptoms

And

Estimating multivariate similarity between neuroimaging datasets with sparse canonical correlation analysis: an application to perfusion imaging

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2015.00366/full

jogill

climber

Colorado

Aug 12, 2018 - 12:04pm PT

Mike, thanks for your thoughtful reply. You articulate well.

" Anyway this has nothing at all to do with the subject "What is Mind" and is a flagrant example of thread drift."

Don, this kind of drift is welcome, IMO. One of my pet metaphysical thought projects is multiverses. My suspicion is that, at each instant an infinity of universes springs into existence. This would easily solve the Grandfather Problem in backward time travel: You shoot your grandfather, but the repercussions exist in other universes. You return, alive, from the past.

The other day Nancy and I argued about what happened several years ago to a certain actor, and I was convinced I was correct. My memory of the incident was clear. But it turned out I was wrong (as usual in a discussion with my wife). However, perhaps I was right and the universes were different, and the human mind can occasionally bridge the gaps.

This could explain why the bystander descriptions of a criminal act in a public place can vary so widely.

I think my hobby has at least the gravitas of no-thingness.

Marlow

Sport climber

OSLO

Aug 12, 2018 - 12:06pm PT

Life Lessons

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado & Nepal

Aug 12, 2018 - 01:33pm PT

I like the idea of multiverses as well. I think they could explain a lot of meditational and psye experiences. Either that or encounters with multiple dimensions within our own. Somewhere there is a scientific explanation.

WBraun

climber

Aug 12, 2018 - 02:24pm PT

Somewhere there is a scientific explanation.

When one does the proper authorize meditation then the scientific explanation gets revealed.

The gross materialist think they are independent and can manufacture any old method they please.

They are NOT independent, but full subordinate at all times, eternally!

Not that one makes bogus claims such as I was in the slack line for hours and is the same .....

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Aug 12, 2018 - 05:23pm PT

Ed: However, our collective lifestyles have consequences for the Earth's environment, and the science on this paints a bleak picture of those consequences when based on our continued practice of those lifestyles.

I think you hit it on the head here, though I don't think the there any consequences per se for the Earth's environment. I think the Earth's ecology is always completely fine and trending towards an equilibrium it never quite reaches. What I do think is there are consequences for our lifestyle and that all these destructive human behaviors are just that - lifestyle choices we are making for our progeny.