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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
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This leads to the inescapable conclusion that the earth is at the center of the expansion, which cannot be true. Hence, "space itself" must be expanding, or so they say.
it leads to the inescapable conclusion that every point in space is the "center of expansion"
I can see that you would be confused if you can't wrap your head around that.
Space-time is not separable from the stuff that occupies it, so that stuff is "moving" too.
This is not "a problem."
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 10, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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So there was no great explosion in some faraway place? I thought you said the cosmic microwave background measurement proved the universe was once very hot.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
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as the universe expands it cools off, at very early times its temperature is high enough that the universe is dissociated into a plasma of constituents.
the cooling results in the combination (recombination in some jargon, but it hadn't previously been combined) of those constituents eventually coming to the last, which is the combining of electrons and protons into atoms and the freeing of the photons.
Those photons then stream into the universe unabated by the neutral atoms.
While those photons form a black body radiation of 4ºK today, at the time of the combination the universe was about the temperature of the ionization energy of hydrogen, 13 eV which corresponds to 150,800ºK
the expansion of the universe is why the photons have red shifted down in energy... they have been moving away from us since the recombination
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 10, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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That is some serious bullsht.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2018 - 01:25pm PT
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^^^do you use GPS?
Lawyers are experts in detecting BS though.
an interesting claim with no evidence to back it up.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Aug 10, 2018 - 02:18pm PT
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why is it BS, Mr. Paul?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 10, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
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Think of the surface of an expanding balloon. All points move away from one another. No center.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 10, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
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^^ haha winning
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 10, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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Yeah, Dingus is on a roll this afternoon!
...
Hey science types, PSA... Steven Pinker's on Bill Maher tonight. It's a first.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 10, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
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MikeL: "When you rest your arm on a table to type your post here, there is an implicit assumption that the table is solid . . . it doesn’t matter what things really are (to hell with that), you “get things done” by golly, so you’re good."
How about that moon in the sky? I know it's not solid, but is it still there when you look away?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 10, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
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Whenever the gross materialists are asked what is the original source, they say, "We're not concerned with that".
We are only concerned with just examining the phenomenon of that source.
But that is very poor and defective science, the science of gross materialism, the narrow dark cave of illusion.
They never seek the original cause because they are ultimately clueless how to even do it.
Thus the gross materialists always remain in very poor fund of knowledge masquerading themselves as very knowledgeable ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2018 - 07:33pm PT
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I agree, Werner, there is so much that we don't know, and we work very hard to even know what we do.
Original cause? well we aren't even sure what "cause" is or why it matters, as far as we know the universe doesn't need causes, that's amazing in itself, given all that is around us.
And our "fund of knowledge" is woeful... we are truly humbled by reality and work hard to understand even the simplest phenomena.
Certain we all feel as Newton did,
"... like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 11, 2018 - 09:03am PT
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jogill: How about that moon in the sky? I know it's not solid, but is it still there when you look away?
I think you’re kinda stuck on this one.
If the moon is essentially empty of its apparent substantiality, then what is “it” that we’re talking about? We’re talking about a manifestation, aren’t we? Aren’t you asking whether or not the manifestation is substantial?
No external object can be shown to exist without an internal reality to perceive it. (Empiricism relies upon it.) Without perception there can be no claim of existence. (Regarding non-existence, we can know nothing at all because non-existence falls outside of mind, and of that we can know nothing, a fortiori.)
Consciousness tends to coalesce and contract (pinch-down) in conformity to the object [sic] perceived. It then creates a representation of the object in awareness. One could hence say that observation (perception) is creation. That which is known by awareness (through its illumination) implies that whatever is known is nothing other than awareness itself.
There appears to be no dividing line, John, between what is internal and what is external. If one can erase that line, then one finds oneself at the hub of the universe and at the hub of awareness. It’s the same hub.
Becoming immersed in awareness of one’s being exposes the embarrassing recognition that one does not know what one is. One could say that God created the body to give rise to experience, one’s soul is the awareness of the body, and that awareness creates the universe.
Ideas or realizations spontaneously arise as pure energy out of nowhere. If the arising of energy is strong enough, it attracts a cognitive structure (an idea, a concept) as it moves into consciousness. That would be the moon for you.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Aug 11, 2018 - 09:16am PT
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No external object can be shown to exist without an internal reality to perceive it.
What could be shown to exist without a perceiver to receive the demonstration?
Your statement is nonsense, or at a more charitable level, metaphysics.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 11, 2018 - 10:15am PT
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...just eat the steak...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 11, 2018 - 10:29am PT
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"Becoming immersed in awareness of one’s being exposes the embarrassing recognition that one does not know what one is."
No need to be embarrassed. We're all in the same existential boat.
I'm just curious, are these the sorts of things you taught business students? My father directed the graduate business school at the University of Georgia in the late 1950s, and I never heard of anything like that in the curriculum.
California may be different.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Aug 11, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
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Today and the late 1950s are hard to compare.
edit:
Unless we agree on a metric.
I propose John Gill boulder problems. But extending the timeline into the early 1960s.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
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MikeL: ...without an internal reality...
...immersed in awareness of one’s being...
I know I personally have to set my alarm fifteen minutes early every morning so I have time to find and reassemble my internal reality in order to have awareness of my being. It always sucks when I oversleep and don't get that done. But some days I get lucky and it's like a big bang in my head - one minute I'm asleep and nothing and the next I've expanded in a few milliseconds to being me.
Also, for those who, like Largo, think there's no independent subconscious agency and awareness and that below the conscious mind it isn't "agency and awareness all the way down", you should look into sleep research, sleep forensics, dreams/nightmares, and the variety of Parasomnias (I know people do the damnedest things in their sleep, my younger brother was a prolific sleepwalker).
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 11, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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"I propose John Gill boulder problems. But extending the timeline into the early 1960s."
1959: V9 (me . . . now an easy day for a lady)
2018: V16 to V17 (clearly, not me)
Ditto for business schools, I suppose. Dad was a Bayes statistician. He would not have understood "awareness of one's being." Times change.
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