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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:58pm PT
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worm wrote
"say what you will about W but nobody can deny that he did whatever he could to prevent another 9/11"
No way. Bush made the world hate us after 9-11 gave us the world's sympathy. Ball dropped. Bush was the greatest recruiter Al Queda ever had.
Bush created another 9/11 by invading two countries, especially Iraq. Trillions will be spent, more thousands of lives were lost. Just as bad as 9-11 and the veterans will bring PTSD and long term pain back in a way that 9-11 didn't.
Only thing is, Bush did it to us. We did another 9-11 to ourselves, we just don't see it yet.
Fool
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:16am PT
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"How can anyone watch this and continue to defend bush/cheney?"
Because the kool-aid is very, very toxic. The subject does not realize that their judgement, values, and perspective are being subverted by the political toxin.
Only the most unhinged Repug could possibly support a practice that is in complete conflict with our national values. (bookworm?)
If you compromise your principles when times get hard, they aren't principles...they are hobbies.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 23, 2009 - 09:46am PT
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here's an good article from that right-wing hatred site salon:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2009/04/23/torture/print.html
where the author stumbles:
first, he concedes "a compelling moral and philosophical argument for torture" in the 'ticking bomb scenario'...thus, his moral argument against torture collapses...the argument isn't really about right and wrong but simply about urgency...where does one draw the "imminent" line? 1 hour? 1 day? 1 week? terrorist attacks like 9/11 take time to plan and implement...several on here claim that bush "knew" about 9/11 and failed to stop it therefore it was his fault...did he know that morning? a week ahead? a month? what/how did he "know"? how could he have stopped it?...the author actually excuses bush and all other security officials by claiming, "No one can say whether those captured would have carried out other terrorist attacks"...according to the author, the "imminent danger" threshold requires that we KNOW the suspect is guilty...which would mean, short of a confession, not until after the planes hit the towers
so, it seems the author would support bush's order to shoot down any unresponsive passenger planes (definitely killing hundreds of innocent people but only a few terrorists...that is, if the lack of response wasn't due to a faulty radio)...how do you feel about that order?
ok, so we all saw those planes hit those towers...still, according to the author, our capture of aq masterminds did not meet the threshold for justifiable torture because the bomb wasn't literally ticking...in fact, the bombs (i.e. plans) did have very long fuses...the 9/11 fuse started ticking years before when testimony in the first world trade center bombing revealed the buildings could be brought down with a guided missile or "a plane loaded with fuel"...how short does the fuse have to be, not to stop the attack but to justify "torture"?
the author makes this comment: "We have also known, in large part, what those tortures consisted of -- waterboarding, slapping, sleep deprivation, the withholding of pain medication...we have learned about other disgusting practices, such as slamming prisoners into walls and locking them in boxes with insects"
note the subtle attempt to distinguish torture from "disgusting practices"...why is slapping "torture" but slamming into walls only "disgusting"? ...he then goes on to say, "Zubaydah gave most of his useful information before being waterboarded", here singling out waterboarding as torture but choosing to ignore the fact that other techniques were employed (presumably slapping, sleep deprivation, and witholding pain medication)...and ignoring the very reasonable conclusion that if he gave up such "useful" information with less persuasive techniques he would likely give up even more useful (dare i say imminent) information if waterboarded
the author concludes: The Chilean writer and human rights activist Ariel Dorfman wrote, "Torture is, of course, a crime committed against a body. It is also a crime committed against the imagination. Or rather, it presupposes, it requires, it craves the abrogation of our capacity to imagine others' suffering, dehumanizing them so much that their pain is not our pain." Torture shatters the lives of those subjected to it, Dorfman writes. It corrupts not only the torturer, but all of society. "Torture obliges us to be deaf and blind and mute."
i agree with this condemnation of torture, but i've seen videos of several people being waterboarded voluntarily and i'm not horrified...i was horrified by the opening scenes of slumdog millionaire and the torture scene in casino royale and the prison scenes in the deer hunter or when i read about what was done to john mccain (by the way, shouldn't the world court prosecute the north vietnamese?)
does waterboarding reach that same level? can we draw a clear line? who really has the capacity to make that judgment, to declare that slapping is torture but slamming into a wall only disgusting? is the line movable--as in the ticking bomb context like the author suggests--or is it indellible? should we really punish the people who made these decisions even though we weren't and never will be in their shoes with the lives of thousands hanging in the balance?
we waterboarded three men (out of hundreds) because we KNEW they possessed high value information...i hope, given the same circumstances, obama does the same
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jstan
climber
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:55pm PT
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During the time the US was carrying out bombing missions inside Pakistan without consulting that country's government I remember many reports advancing the possibility we were seriously destabilizing Pakistani politics. Makes sense. When a foreign nation ignores your government you also are inclined to do the same. If so we have helped bring about possession of nuclear weapons by persons whose behavior we are unable to gauge.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 23, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/politics/
The republicans are digging such a deep hole that they won't see the light for years and years.
It like watching the Three Stooges. Rush, Hannity and who ever opens their mouth in congress.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Apr 23, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
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i can't figure this one out...the "most ethical congress evah" continues to amaze me...in 2007, wapo did a story that revealed congressional leaders (names were named) were briefed on the "enhanced interrogation techniques"; nobody objected and many asked if more could be done...now, here's nancy flatly denying she knew anything...if trials happen, they're going to turn into a three-ring circus
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/23/pelosi-on-waterboarding-i-knew-nothing/
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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Guys guys Bookworm is "amazed" at a more transparent and less corrupt but still corrupt Congress even though he ardently defended the opaque and incredibly corrupt one that came before let's get excited and post links.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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"Discussing the end of one party coming from the other party is a bit disingenuous. "
Well hey now we wouldn't want to go being disingenuous in a political thread on THIS forum now would we? That would certainly be crossing the line.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 23, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
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The first confirmation of the death of the Republican party was the devastating loss of seats in the House and Senate to Democrats in the 2006 midterms.
The final confirmation was when a virtually unknown black junior senator from Illinois beat a well known "war hero" by an Electoral College landslide, and the largest popular vote total in history.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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Skipt - Who said "torture never gives up valuable information?" I smell (yet another) straw man.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 23, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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Skip...I will bet any amount of money that the republicans will lose more seats in the house and senate in 2010...they CANNOT win in major states (CA, NY, PA) at this point in a national election...they are out touch and out numbered.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 23, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Repugs need a new ally - evil rich + stupid white god-groveling racist homophobes is no longer a majority.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Apr 23, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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Hey, some of my best friends are white people!
And I'm not a Democrat - I've been voting for the lesser of two evils for 29 years.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 10:50pm PT
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Awww Skipt. You are so oppressed and discriminated against. Don't worry. One day our country will become as enlightened as you are and elect a torturing, preemptive war raging, southern border wall building government and you will have a government you can be proud of and the White Man will finally crow with the pride of generations of angst unleashed.
Also please find me numerous posts a range of people who said torture "produces no intelligence." I think it's rich how you whine and race to the victim position when people paraphrase the worst parts of your ideology and are happy to frame the argument in kind when the role is reversed.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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It's playing the victim any way you look at it Skipt. Woe is you. So much easier to accuse others of bigotry than to simply own up to obvious undercurrent of race that colors so many of our politics. I'm not talking about you personally, but the larger discussion we have as a country. You can be "tough on immigration" without being a racist, but if your only response is to ignore the obvious and accuse others of bigotry instead you never really get anywhere.
"Just like the polls say only 25% say waterboarding should never be used and 47% say it is OK under certain circumstances. "
So that makes it morally ok? Is that what you're getting at?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Thanks for proving my point. "I don't understand so I'll just attack."
And racist bigotry against who? White people? Where is the intolerance exactly? This is a thread full of I'm guessing pretty much all white people talking.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 23, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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So does victimization, apparently.
And answer my question. Is morality to be left to opinion polls? Are they the arbiter of right and wrong? Mob rule?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 24, 2009 - 04:19am PT
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What happened to LEB anyway? I've noticed that she's been absent.
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