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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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JB wrote:T-Paul - Keep riding that horse brother! heh heh...
John...don't know if you noticed but most if not all new hard trad routes are done by people who have done a large amount of sport climbing...heh heh
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks John.
A good deal of the posters here on Supertopo are staunch traditionalists and pretty much categorically defy rap bolting. While that gets explained really well, again, the crux of this thread, the crux of the biscuit so to speak, is the notion of coexistence. Is this a pipe dream? Will the prevalence of rap bolting blot out traditional styles?
I brought it up a few times and it tends to go unnoticed here, this fact that in the Flatirons of Boulder, ground up, on sight, bolted first ascents ARE NOT ALLOWED. To a forum so composed predominantly of traditional climbers, this should seem ironic or ridiculous to say the least.
Here is a case where the tables have completely turned. I find that noteworthy. For those of us who were around in the 80s and active, we may remember that in many ways sport climbing found fertile territory in Colorado, while it was initially much resisted in California.
This goes some way to explaining how we can have an established committee here in Colorado which outlaws traditional means. I found it telling that one of my friends here, who had a hand in instituting the Eldorado model of bolting controls, which was used as a template for the Flatiron committee, this person had never heard of Tom Higgins, or if he had he didn't understand the significance of Higgins’ to the historical development of bolted slabs. This would be like me, originally a Californian, having never been fairly cognizant of the influence and legacy of John Stannard.
A lot of people who have input on this matter are lacking in knowledgeable appreciation of historical context.
To my point: even though Colorado was once a hotbed of purism, (for instance, the idea of eradicating all hanging belays wherever possible through creative stance, and Jim Erickson's chalk less no falls ethic and so forth), we've since had lots of influence from the concept that sport climbing introduced; namely that the quality of a route is more important than how it went up. (I'm not saying that sentiment doesn't have its place).
The Flatirons model embraces this and it also rejects any sort of route involving bolts which is by its nature, say by being run out for example, liable to exclude people. That's a long ways down the line from people working with the natural environment ground up and setting an example of something to aspire to, which includes risk.
So in trying to sort out some of this methodology which has been adopted by these Colorado committees, I asked one of these committee members how a traditional style bolted route might be accommodated and they said "Well Roy, we'd have to have quotas for different styles". He made that remark, and it was tabled as a remark and not as a suggestion, as though it was absurd.
So circling back to the letter that John Bachar just referenced as appearing in the Half Dome thread, the one which Deuce posted, that actually suggested a place to start in terms of creating some sort of format to accept these different styles in a way somewhat more codified than a free-for-all style of competition for potential lines.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Is it possible to repost the Bachar letter (from Deuce) here? Thanks. Or was it Deuce's letter that Bachar posted?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Man folks have their thongs in a bunch.
My last post was simply to point out in all this arguing of co-existing is that the only time a climbing party has had an effect on a climb of mine was a trad group, not sport climbers. I thought that was pretty funny in light of this conversation.
Sure, I was young and had poorly planned the climb, evident by the late start and lack of headlights. My climb wasn’t ruined, and I wasn’t mad at anyone. It was learning experience, like every climb has been. I learn from both good and bad experiences. I went back the next summer, was the first one on the route, and had a great time.
High horse? Cripes, I don’t see how I’ve tried to force my style on anyone, or claimed superiority. I just like climbing, not falling. There is a huge difference between having a live and let live acceptance of other styles, vs. adopting them. It seems some sport climbers want to force everyone adopting their styles as the only way they can feel that they are being accepted. Why is this?
My current climbing partner is the best partner I've ever climbed with. Not because he's a strong climber, which he is, not because he's a trad or sport climber, as I don't know what he considers himself, and I don't think he's ever thought about it. He's just a climber, ice, rock, gym, he clips bolts, he places pro, he free solos. We simply enjoy climbing together.
Our jobs are flexible enough that if the weather is right, and the mood strikes, lunch time is spent getting in a climb, and we feel great about it afterwords. He has no problem with me being out of shape and climbing several grades less then he climbs. If I'm stuck at something that's cruxing me he doesn't spray or try to rush me. If I'm cruising or climbing well, he doesn't blow smoke up my azz.
If I were to put in a nutshell why he's such a good partner, it's that he climbs sans ego.
Styles can co-exist, but big egos can't, even if they are from the same camp.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tolman...my comment was not directed at you but to the other Paul...Champ-Sleeper
The climbs (sport and trad) can/do coexist...it's the people who can't.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Ok, I'll come down off the horse. Don't mean to rag on you Tolman, but it just seemed you were ragging on Traddies without a good reason. Bob, there is merit to sport climbing, and I know it can be a meaningful pursuit.
On the other hand, the both "coexisting" concept is a really warm, fuzzy ideal that neglects some of the realities of what really goes on.
The truth is sport climbing, or the sport climbing mindset, can have an negative impact on traditional areas. I've seen it happen recently here in Phx, AZ at a traditional area, Pinnacle Peak. Here, an existing semi-runout bolted trad route "Lessons in Discipline" has been retro-bolted without FA permission or even a community concensus. Now, the run-outs are removed, and a route that meant more than the sum of its moves is just another sport clip up. I see this kind of thing as a tangible negative impact of sport climbing in a traditional area.
On the other hand, what impact does trad have on sport areas? Is there a perceived negative impact for sport climbers when a trad line goes up in a sport area? If we are to work towards a "both coexist" live and let live mentality, there should be give and take. I just feel like the "both coexisting" concept, in reality, is only a benefit for sport climbing and mostly a drag for trad climbing.
-Paul
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Paul wrote: Now, the run-outs are removed, and a route that meant more than the sum of its moves is just another sport clip up. I see this kind of thing as a tangible negative impact of sport climbing in a traditional area.
I would chop the bolts and fill in the holes. Pretty simple solution.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Bob-
That's the plan. I just thought I'd give an example of something concrete.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Nate - Here's the compromise letter I came up with (thanks to Deuce for saving this).
I thought maybe we could share the rock and still have some challenges for ground up climbers but the rap guys wanted nothing to do with it.
The problem is that ground up efforts take a lot more time than rap bolting efforts and all the open terrain gets eaten up real quick on rappel thereby leaving the ground up guys with nothing. That's why I quit climbing in Tuolumne - everything I was trying got rap bolted so I left.
When I found the unclimbed Owens River Gorge, I was stoked but after I put up three routes, the rap bolters put up a hundred. Then I quit climbing there too.
So much for co-existence and giving the "other guys" a chance.... Up is up, down is down.
Here it is...was...
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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In areas where the two ethics exist, one existed before the other. Up to local ethic (or lack thereof) to decide if this sets a precedent for the entire cliff or region, I guess. Or it's simply live and let live, depending often on the egos involved.
How often does an individual visit a trad (GU) crag and start putting up sport climbs?
How often does an individual visit a sport crag and start putting up trad (GU) climbs?
I reckon the first happens much much more often. And that's the perceived threat to traditionalism. It's not a very even playing field - when competition for a limited resource enters the picture.
Where I climb, the two ethics co-exist side by side, largely due to lack of any local climbing community. A number of the FAists do routes in both styles. But I can guarantee that far more sport routes are going in then trad (GU) routes.
Ultimately, if any hope for a balance is to be maintained in these areas, then the traditionalists have to get to work, while also recruiting the next generation of climbers to go at it ground-up.
Edit:
Thanks John for reposting. Did any top-down practitioners participate/collaborate in penning this co-existence letter?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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I'm glad to see that the coexistence issue is getting some consideration, but I don't think that John's first condition is a reasonable expectation.
I climb for myself, not to compare myself with others. So suggesting that my style be dependent upon difficulty, and furthermore that that level of difficulty is dependent on the levels that others are climbing at is not gonna work for me.
If the rap bolters are putting up a hundred routes to the trad's three then in my eyes the accomplishment of those three ascents is only greater. It adds to their status.
For me quality has always meant far more than quantity.
You should be proud of those three John. They only distinguish themselves that much more.
The thing that bugs me is that people do climbs without the faintest notion of their history (don't get me going).
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John's "rules" seems to favor the trad-climber...no wonder it never took off.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Thank God there is plenty of it to go around. "
Well, there you go - except if we're talking within reasonable driving and approach distances for a day of climbing then I'd say there isn't 'plenty of it to go around' at all in many parts of the country - and what there is, that's unprotected by private ownership or active land management, is all but under siege by drills.
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WBraun
climber
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John Bachar
That so called coexistence of rules sure reeks of a fascist proposition.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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under siege? hahahahahahhahahahaha...
those damn batteries!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Tomcat wrote:
"Question for traddies.When this crap started,did you forsee the epidemic it is now?Did you think you'd be vying for crags with sport climbers.Did you think you'd ever see a bolted crack?"
That was a poignant question!
Healyje did a pretty good job with it:
"In places like Eldo and the Gunks you could see about 40-50% of the folks leading were very nervous about it and basically less than competent and confident with gear."
Another thing which Healyje has asserted throughout these discussions: something to the effect that the predominant number of climbers out there in this day and age are risk-averse and prefer a fairly sanitized well protected experience.
In answer to Tomcat's first question and to expand on it:
Hell yes I knew (rap bolting) would likely become prevalent. In the early 80s Lechlinsky and I went on a little bolt chopping junket in Joshua Tree. Not to be insensitive here, but it was sort of fun; at that time even rap routes were done with quarter inch button heads and they came out laughably easy. Some of the routes I had previously climbed with the rappel bolts in place, and others I hadn't, but lead them later without the bolts, except for one of them. (Frankly I don't give a hoot about those last details, just some trivia for people who find that important).
We did it because we thought it might, -might stave an onslaught of rap bolting, long-term, in the Monument; you know, nip it in the bud. But I harbored no illusions about the long-term realities. I figured, as the masses began to get involved in rockclimbing, they would sooner or later get around to imposing their risk-averse ways.
What Healyje said about risk-averse climbers, even within the trad community, that is so true and quite key. I believe it just so happens that there aren't that many of us, in a proportional sense, that really excel at on-site leading. It might even be an innate talent, even though it can obviously be learned and polished, I think a great many climbers just don't have it. So in essence, it is by nature a little bit elitist.
In support of that last paragraph, by way of example: take Tony Yaniro. Obviously a brilliant climber, demonstrating great footwork, awesome power and limitless enthusiasm, he probably knew how and had in the past run things out, but in general he just didn't want to risk a lot and loved to sew things up.
When Lechlinsky and I were doing new routes in the California Needles around that same time, we'd sort of been giving Yaniro and Leavitt grief for their top-down tactics. We had been using hooks occasionally for some of the steeper slabs, bolting in positions too steep to swing a hammer from natural stance. Tony capitulated, made himself a bunch of custom hooks, (he really loved making gear, he once hand cut his own 3/4" cams), and went to work on Sirocco. It's a great route, but they basically just constructed a bolt ladder from their hooks, and selectively removed bolts after the fact to make the leading and clipping more balanced.
So you just can't make everybody play your game and there are lots of climbers out there who just don't risk it, so sport climbing is here to stay (not even to mention or defend all the straightforward athletic positive things about sport climbing). In my opinion, once that appraisal comes into focus, things only get worse when we try to impose our own will upon others; next thing you know, a few turns and a few years down the road (now), they are the ones who are in the majority, and your “Noble Savage" style is the thing getting ruled out!
So that last bit is obviously the best argument for extending towards sport climbers a means to coexistence where trad climbers are concerned. I am not saying I know how to achieve it, but we are in the minority, in essence, as noted by Healyje, always have been.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: Another thing which Healyje has asserted throughout these discussions: something to the effect that the predominant number of climbers out there in this day and age are risk-averse and prefer a fairly sanitized well protected experience.
I hope Joe put himself in that group...knowing his past as top-downer or top-roper.
John...since your proposal...how many 5.13c trad routes have been done in the area and by who??
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Now don't ruin it for me Bob!
And what the heck were you doing waist deep in that fast water anyway?
You won't find me risking that lunacy...
hahaha!
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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bob - Not many if any at all 13c routes have been done that I know of - they all got rap bolted. No one gave the ground up guys a chance.
Nate D hits it on the nailhead - rap bolters always win. They get to all the lines quite easily and quickly.
Ask any ground up dude/dudette how it feels.
Werner - Yes, I hated trying to write that stupid co-existence thing. I was trying to give both sides a chance to do their own thing (dumb idea but at least I tried - I didn't get any compromise ideas from them). Everybody can still do their own thing but the ground up folks always get the raw deal. Most of the obvious good lines get the top down treatment in rapid fashion - "Sorry about that ground up climber".
Except for Southern Belle...
Ground up forever!
-jb
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Bob D: "I hope Joe put himself in that group...knowing his past as top-downer or top-roper."
Bob, was never a top-downer, but we did top rope a bunch and that was entirely LNT-driven back in So.Ill. based on the rock and does include a couple of X-rated TR's in the mix if you're ever in that neck of the woods, as well as one roof that went highball / free solo for the same reason. That and I've stacked a few hexs in pegmatite here and there over the years on new lines. And actually, TRing real steep lines and roofs is a lot harder than dogging up them bolt to bolt - it's really closer to deep water soloing - it's entirely 'think fast and do, or fly'.
My current FAs are actually pretty grim affairs at the moment from an objective hazard standpoint. And while I'm not particularly talented, well-rounded, or strong in this company, I don't think anyone then or now would describe my climbing as particularly risk averse.
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