Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 09:32pm PT
|
After seeing those great pics of the South Face, all I can say is how sorry I am that I never jumped on that wall when I was climbing crimpy face routes about 200 days a year. Win or lose, we would have had some fun. The texture of that wall looks fantastic.
JL
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 09:48pm PT
|
Matt...I'll try to be brief. Over 1500 fa's trad and sport...mostly sport. I taken my fair share of hits (criticism) from both sides. I bolted on lead route up to mid-12, solo my share and done a crazy amount of high-ball boulder problems, also looking to finish a route in the Black Canyon ground up. I taken 60-70 foot falls and repeated a number of hard-trad-routes in my day. That was a personal choice and wouldn't expect others to do if they didn't feel the need. I have with age come to the conclusion that climbing isn't worth dying over. My wife and children mean way to much to me to not squeeze out every second on this earth to be with them.
My best routes are the ones that get climbed and put a smile on someone face. Bolts or no bolts on that section of Half Dome the sun will rise and set, the fighting in Iraq will continue, people will continue to starve, murders will happen and more than likely we will continue to polluted and destroy this place we call home.
I think there are bigger fish to fry!
I feel quite lucky to part of something cool and feel that 99-per-cent of the time I try my best to do what I felt was right at the time.
Sean and Doug put themselves out there on this issue and knew what would come of it. Before convicting let history be the judge of the route and keep it civil. These are people with family, friends and other things going on in their lives...they also seem like really good people.
Also...I'm not going to slander or name call on this thread...way to many people I respect posting here.
|
|
Orion
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 10:05pm PT
|
hooo ahhh!
this and the trip reports are why I come to the taco, this is a great debate with a lot of people considering their opinions, some more consideration than others, on Climbing ethics and style. Thank you.
This is soooo much better than political drivel and slander, please keep both out of this post.
|
|
pimp daddy wayne
climber
The Bat Caves
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 10:54pm PT
|
What about rap chopping? I would chop on lead because I'm bad ass...............
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:04pm PT
|
Clint said it best:
"The 1000' slab was rap bolted so Sean Jones would have a route that is a "success", by going to the top of Half Dome. It's about Yosemite first ascent #91. It may be related to the demands of being a sponsored climber - getting the FAs in print, helping friends get nice photos and movie footage. And about the challenge of trying to do a big new free route, too. I'm sure there is some very good quality climbing on it, and it's "safe", but the story behind it is plain ugly."
This is the plain and obvious truth. Fattrad said it too:
"From what I've read, this was an ego route to be completed at any cost"
I don't respect the route and, if I could climb that hard, it would be of no interest to me. I would point out though, one redeeming act that I think everyone here can agree on. At least they were up front and totally honest about it. Although I've lost a lot of respect for Doug (who I've never met, but always admired), at least he's willing to post publicly, truthfully and thoughtfully. That I do respect.
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:21pm PT
|
This can either be a debate about ethics, or it can be a debate about how big of an ass Sean Jones is.
I don't feel qualified to discuss the former; I've seen pictures of the bolted crack and I've also heard there's ~60 feet of shady bolting ethics.
On the latter, well, he wants his name all over guidebooks, and I've heard him say it and I've heard his close friends say it. As in Clint's example of the bolted arete, it's not like no one could have done these climbs first. Most of the crap he's doing seems to be mungy and gross trad lines or sport lines that no one wanted to bolt because trad lines don't fly in the Valley.
It's not like he's an original, and I'm certain many of his 90 "first ascents" were done by others who didn't feel like mentioning the chossy crap they had just sent. Obviously, he's a good climber, but he doesn't seem to understand quality over quantity.
To me, it seems like most of what he's doing is cheap and easy, and even if his name is all over the guidebooks like he wants, a good number of people will never respect what he's done because it's cheap and easy.
But I could be wrong.
Realistically, his kids are fantastic and so is his wife, and I very much respect how he's trying to take care of them. That probably makes his climbing less ethical, because he's overbolting to be safe or something.
He grew up in Mariposa (close to the West entrance) and does seem to have an absurdly strong sense of posession toward Yosemite/the Sierra Nevada. I think there are plenty of people here who will outright scoff at that, as have I.
|
|
Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:32pm PT
|
Well, in the long run I believe this kind of dialogue is beneficial. Many good arguments have been made on both sides of this issue. For what it is worth, I would like to share that many years ago Doug Robinson came to my school, at my request, to present a climbing slide show to students in hopes of giving them a positive perspective on life. Following the slide show, Doug volunteered to meet with a group of advance english students to talk about writing. He stayed until all student questions were answered and left quite an impression in the minds of some talented adolescents. Somebody mentioned this in a post above, but ultimately I judge people based on their integrity. Doug Robinson demonstrated integrity many years ago when he freely gave of his time to work with kids, and he demonstrated it again on this thread when he forthrightly explained what he was thinking regarding this climb. As I said earlier........Thanks Doug...I'm good !!
Cracko
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:41pm PT
|
Mtnyoung & Domingo....your posts are nothing but speculation and hear say. Good job!
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:49pm PT
|
> Bob, I've admitted what's hearsay and speculation, but this whole thread is generally speculation. For one, none of us have climbed this route. For two, it's a Supertopo debate on climbing ethics. I mean, you can't narrow a damn thing down, even if you wanted to; people are going to decide for themselves.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
|
domingo wrote: This can either be a debate about ethics, or it can be a debate about how big of an ass Sean Jones is.
So what does this statement have to climbing styles/ethics????
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008 - 11:59pm PT
|
Ask yourself this. In terms of style/ethics/heart/soul, which route is more admirable in your own eyes, Growing Up or Southern Belle? Sure, I'm looking from far away in miles, years and ability, but even from way out here I like Southern Belle better....
|
|
Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
|
|
Oh man. I'm hurting inside on this one.
I was inspired to start climbing by Doug, Dennis, and Galen's "clean ascent of the NW Face of Half Dome" article in National Geographic, 1974 issue. Dennis was on the cover shot, hooking on the second to last pitch. The attitude was that the clean approach, hammerless, brought more respect into the relationship between climber and wall, human and wildness, and it was almost, gag, spiritual, for me...I was inspired.
I still think the ground up style IS part of the heart and soul.
I think we all suffer from the act. We are somehow accountable. I think that route should be removed and I don't think it deserves to be there, whether I climb it or ignore it. I think "Growing UP" is devolution. I think Doug's excuses are lame. Safety, age, wives and Children are poor excuses to play it safe, and lower the standards.
I want you rap bolters to stay the hell off Half Dome.
Go somewhere else. The money changers are in the Temple!
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
Ah yes, I did want to clarify that:
I'm not calling him an ass, and honestly don't think he's an ass, if you're wondering; also, I'm pretty sarcastic and it doesn't tend to come off so well over the internetz, so you may not have picked up on it.
In all honesty, I was making a jest about the two sides of this thread. It seems like some people are decided against climbing the route not only because it was rap-bolted but also because it was rap-bolted by someone who, outside of Yosemite, is kind of unheard of, and also by Doug Robinson, hero of the clean climbs before he got 'over the hill', so to speak.
So yeah, it's all conjecture and I'm being rather obscure, but I admit, I wonder if Ronk Kauk had done this line whether it would cause the same fuss.
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
Domingo, those are pretty intense words to say about someone you never met.
A long time ago (well not that long. Some of you dudes are like 90 years old) when I started climbing in a gym, Bachars name was synonymous with a-hole. He was the guy who was trying to stop climbing progression, who would rather die than do something as tame as rap bolting.
Some time later, I began climbing outside of the San Diego scene. I went to Joshua tree and Suicide and Tahquitz. I gained an appreciation of what it meant to "do a route," not just "go climbing." Stories came out, beers were passed around, and climbing became more than just a sport. Sport climbing isn't about bolts. Its about mentality.
Sometimes I laugh a bit when someone asks if I went "trad Climbing." I see Sonnie Trotter (who, btw, is a badass) hanging on a TR, putting gear every 4 feet on a crack, and see that win the "trad climbing" golden piton award and wonder to myself, yet only so much, because not long ago to me trad climbing was something seperate entirely.
Maybe trad climbing is a bad word, maybe we have Sport Climbing and Lifestyle climbing. When it becomes your life and takes over, it isn't a sport anymore.
Long story even longer, you can never really know somebody until you meet them. Let the route speak for the route. You may find out like I did that what you feel right now about something may change.... Bachar is a good guy. Maybe sean is too.
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
How do you know I haven't met him? :) In any case, it's his style that I don't like, and I do have strong opinions about things. I like Dean Potter, in some senses (haven't met him, honestly), but I do have strong and negative opinions with the 'Delicate Arch Publicity Stunt.'
Also, do read my clarification. Bridwell was an as#@&%e too, I hear. And Harding. We're all bad people.
Except Ouch.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
'Climbing' > 'trad climbing' > 'adventure climbing' (abominable)
And in about another 10 years or so it will probably be called 'danger climbing' or 'death climbing' as climbing is further sanitized of risk. Climbing, for the vast majority of today's climbers (my guess is 80-85%), is simply just another [bolt-dependent] risk-free entertainment option now well-inculcated into suburban pop culture. And while "Growing Up" is far from anyone's definition of a 'mainstream' route, it still manages to raise the full spectrum of trad vs. sport issues and arguments - many in Doug's post alone:
 Changing values of aging climbers
Groundup vs. Topdown
Onsight vs. Previewing
Movement vs. Risk
X-rated exclusionary lines / zones
'Establishing' vs. 'Developing' routes
Self-expression vs. Community Service
'Quality' vs. Abandoned lines
Consumption today vs. Saving for better climbers
Respecting rock as a resource vs. Use as another consumable 'good'
Risk-free entertainment vs. Passionate risktaking
Entitled vs. Earned
'Improving' vs. 'Corrupting' climbing
Potential future costs of thresholding acceptable levels of 'safety', 'risk', and 'adventure'
Environmental 'importance' scoping
Yosemite big walls have never been, and will never be, immune to such disagreements. Yet whether we're talking the Valley or any other rock, one can argue precedents matter as do the fundamental mindset and 'philosophy of use' they convey to the next generation of climbers, land managers, and the public at large.
I for one happen to believe it really can be a 'slippery slope' in terms of how new lines define or redefine the words "safety", "risk", "access", and "use" in today's world. I also think the perception of 'safety' and 'safe climbs' as an entitlement has steadily grown to dominate the definition of what 'climbing' is today for the majority of the people who
now identify themselves as 'climbers'. This isn't a good thing in my view, but I'm clearly a very small minority in that respect.
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
Actually Bob, my post doesn't contain any hearsay, just affirmations of other's opinions. Opinions that appear to me to be irrefutably true. Oh, and an observation of my own about the value of honesty.
While I've got your attention, earlier in this thread you posted (about North Carolinians):
"Some still married their cousins in certain parts of NC..."
Did these words actually have anything to do with climbing or with this route and this discussion? That post bugged the crap out of me in so many ways. Would you consider editing it? It certainly isn't consistent with your other, later posts that "I'm not going to slander or name call on this thread," and "Good post Doug and way to keep it non-combative...a few here could learn a lesson." The two latter posts seem more like you.
Just an observation.
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
This will hit 300 posts...easily and that a good thing.
Mtnyoung..I wrote that tongue and cheek to show how hearsay and speculation can be so ignorant. Sorry if it offended anyone.
Mtnyoung wrote: Opinions that appear to me to be irrefutably true.
No they are still just opinions.
|
|
Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
|
|
It is refreshing to me to see in print the shared wisdom, feelings, philosophies, history, and styles of American Climbing voiced on this thread.
I have very little if anything to add other than to acknowledge the great debate which for the most part is way more civil than past ones.
Tarbuster, dude, you nailed it for me and I suspect for many others. Thanks for putting words to the soul of which Werner speaks.
Cheers,
DD
|
|
GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
|
|
Yeah domingo you posted your clarification while my stubby fingers were still processing. The whole Beer to brain to hands to screen thing for me is a slow process.
After re-reading your post i did get the sarcasm, hehe. See, I assumed you didn't know him. Thats what happens when you assume! You make an ass out of u and me.... so stupid. When someone says that to me i want to punch them right in their faces. as hard as i can. with my fists.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!