Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2006 - 12:14am PT
|
Not just any dolt, but a futuristic utililty dolt. He could come from a small gym in Texas. Raised too far from the huecos...it's inevitible.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2006 - 12:19am PT
|
Perhaps a good jolt will make the dolt bolt. If not, perhaps the dolt will just molt.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:26am PT
|
fracture (sorry for bringing this thread up again everyone),
questions for ya,
you seem to think that us old farts suck,
that our generation didnt contribute to the success of modern climbers,
that we didnt climb hard stuff,
that we had nothing to do with helping the sport along,
oh please great one, if you are so advanced please share with us who you are and what you have done for climbing so that we can pay homage...
edit
you fecktard.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 27, 2006 - 11:42pm PT
|
perhaps your diatribe against old climbers who once strived for minimum impacts are a reflection for your own internal weaknesses.
it is such a pity when one cannot see what is in the mirror...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:42am PT
|
If one does climbs which require artificial protection, one is bound sooner or later, to encounter very unfortunate situations. People, and that includes those who “make routes”, can be wrong and can even have possibly destructive agendas.
The great attraction of routes which use only naturally occurring protection is that one is free of such human interference. The problem was created eons ago and when you face it the question is simply, “Are you good enough to do it now, or should you come back later when you have gotten better?” Phrased in this way, even defeat is leavened with promise of better things to come.
IMO,
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 12:58am PT
|
The Agony and the Ecstasy
Quote: "In this material world everyone needs some-thing to look forward to because generally no one is satisfied with his present condition."
"They are hoping that in the future, in some other situation or with some other person, they will experience happiness."
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:11am PT
|
DB, I hear what you say. And I wish you were right.
But the gymspawn and their tiny metal slaves are always a threat.
Beware the futuristic utility bolt.
To quote YC and Frost (1972), "Mad bolters are among the worst offenders of the alpine environment. Young climbers must learn that bolting is done as a substitute for climbing. Guides, climbing schools and established climbers have a heavy responsibility here."
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:13am PT
|
nothing like a stick in your a*# to straighten one out.
jstan, you state the obvious in a much more diplomatic way than i can, thats good.
many of the runout routes that present day climbers bitch about were put up under a "minimum impact" to the environment ethic. reducing the number of bolts and leaving the rock in as natural state as possible. the thought was to provide as natural experience as possible for the next person and the next generation. climbing the rock and not using lots of bolts because we all knew that killed some of the adventure aspects of climbing.
apparently, a few of the younger generation prefers that we would have just bolted the sh#t out of things for them. so those pioneers that hung their ass out in the pursuit of some ideal were really sanctimonious as#@&%es showing off.
then of course there is fracture, who didnt need all the advances of sticky rubber, training regimens, plastic holds, sport climbing and all the modern day gear evolutions. he is just better and would have been climbing 5.13 50 years ago. or at least that is what he comes across as saying.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:38am PT
|
I'll remember than the next time I stuff a hunk of machined metal into a pin scar whilst listening to the sounds of garbage trucks and Japanese tourists.
its a shame that you have to climb in such a place. have you tried golf?
edit
dimitri, i dont worry about it. although i have had some ask about placing rapp bolts for convenience on some routes that i did that had nothing added to them in a beautiful place with very few tourists, and only the occaisional garbage truck 1/4 mile away. there were natural anchors and rapp bolts 15 feet away but apparently, that was too inconvenient.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:47am PT
|
WB:
I would be the last to contest anything in a great work of literature. But perhaps this text is describing what is, and not what might be. Wanting what you have got is clearly one way to be happy.
I have to ask a question though. Is not happiness just a preference? If you knew your life were fixed and unchangeable for the next thirty years, which would you prefer? To spend that time in a happy frame of mind, or an unhappy frame of mind? Choose. Everyone who thinks about it a little, would be happy, if it is just a choice.
I am positive all of this was exhaustively treated by the Greeks in 400BC. What a time that must have been. If only I could still remember what it was like.
Cheers,
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:51am PT
|
jstan, i guess you really are older than me...i was just recalling trappin' beaver on the siskadee....
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:59am PT
|
Weschrist
I truly think you have it backwards, the rules are not laid out by old guys/farts etc. but by nature itself. If we do not heed to her rules then we will fall even if we artificially try to protect ourselves.
Not an easy thing to understand. But go ahead and make your own schism, you will fall and get hurt for sure.
jstan, how can one be happy, when one will die.
If you understand beyond this body then you have a real chance at real happiness.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:05am PT
|
Weschrist: "...poorly equipped route."
Def: e·quip (-kwp) tr.v. e·quipped, e·quip·ping, e·quips
adj 1: provided or fitted out with what is necessary or useful or appropriate; "a well equipped playground"; "a ship equipped with every mechanical aid to navigation" [syn: equipt] [ant: unequipped] 2: provided with whatever is necessary for a purpose (as furniture or equipment or authority); "a furnished apartment"; "a completely furnished toolbox" [syn: furnished] [ant: unfurnished]
Definition #1 above:
("a well equipped playground"; "a ship equipped with every mechanical aid to navigation")
would seem to be the most relevant to the ideas I hear Weschrist espousing. A big difference between climbing prior to sport climbing and after it is those early years by and large required you take sole responsibility for your safety in order to climb. That instantly sorted out those seeking risk-free entertainment with the appearance of real risk from those who were prepared to climb. Prior to sport climbing those seeking risk-free entertainment probably amounted to no more than 10-15% of the total and they never lasted long.
That demographic has now been turned on its head; fully 80-85% of today's climbers wouldn't be tomorrow if bolts evaporated tonight. Gyms have become commercial engines producing a relentless annual tidal flow of 'climbers' seeking what is essentially the latest in risk-free, suburban, pop entertainment. And, after twenty years of climbers learning to climb in gyms, the original idea of gyms providing a fairly decent emulation of outdoor climbing has also been turned on its head. Today the expectation is exactly the opposite - the vast majority of today's 'climbers' are simply looking for a good outdoor emulation of their indoor climbing experiences.
And there is no shortage of economic or ego driven motives for servicing this majority demographic. A clever Google Earth video illustrating the growth bolts around the world over the past thirty years would be indistinquishable from the growth of a bacteria swabbed on a sterile petri dish. Don't kid yourself, 'climbing' today is just another risk-free, social entertainment option for the vast majority of climbers. That may be fine to you; but me, I'd personally just as soon see the whole sport collapse back to a level of about a 1/3 of today's numbers the way windsurfing did in the late '80s . Unfortunately, that's not likely to happen with gyms anchoring the industry.
Bottomline, the reason lots of old routes are run out or otherwise objectively dangerous is because they were put up by climbers looking for more than to simply entertain themselves. Commoditize those old routes under the guise of 'community service' if you will, but your contribution will have more in common with the demolition of a fine Craftsman bungalow to make way for a Taco Bell than any true service to climbers.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:23am PT
|
You have all the answers apparently, you must now begin your schism. Report back after three lifetimes.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:28am PT
|
Remember that old saying WB. Youth is wasted on the young.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:45am PT
|
Both the new and the old generation are Rad
Both the new and the old generation are lame and have limited vision.
Cause humans are humans.
Once you get beyond your youth, there's always something wrong with the youth.
Even the "purest" generation (free climbers who followed the aid generation) came under fire for using topos, chalk, cams, bolts on face climbs, and a host of other things.
The new guys clip bolts, but also solo 5.15 over lengthy drops into oceans.
The old guys did put up run-out face climbs that were bold adventures, but they were climbing well below their real limits, and often made their creations with a dangerous challenge to the elite in mind, rather than the welfare of the general climbing community climbing at that grade.
The fact is, we climbers, individually decide how much risk and adventure we want and we go that far, and if we go farther, it's by accident. Folks die just like they always have. Folks have epics just like they always have.
If there were 4-6 bolts per pitch on Space Babble, it wouldn't be such a testament, but a lot more adrenaline would have been released on those fine moves over the years, not less. That's just the way things happened.
But I neither glamourize nor degrade the choices earlier generations made. Those choices were sometimes made to favor adventure and boldness, but just as often they were made to save money and time, and to conform to competitive peer pressure that competed on boldness instead of increased difficulty. Now the emphasis of peer pressure has merely shifted to difficulty.
Some folks have pioneered the changes and been called to task for it. Some were later vidicated and embraced, others have a mixed legacy, at least for now.
Not agreeing nor disagreeing with the perspective, I thought I'd post an excerpt from an Email Todd Skinner wrote me during a controversy over adding bolts to Wet Denim Daydream to make freeclimbing it at 5.13 possible. Food for thought:
"One interesting point that hasn't been brought up is that I talked
extensively to Angus Thurmer about adding bolts to WDD and he had no
problem with it. He pointed out that if the bolts were far enough from
the corner, there would be two routes: WDD using aid and not reaching out
to clip the bolts, and WLN clipping the bolts while free climbing. I just
called him and he was 100% against chopping the bolts, stating that it was
an intellectual problem, not an ethical one.
One reason I haven't brought this up is that I have never considered the
first-ascentionists to be the owners of the route, and this includes me
and routes I have put up. The future climbers inherit each route before
the chalk dust settles and our allegiance must always be to them. If Alex
Huber really did create a crimp on the last section of the headwall of the
Salathe as I have been told, the climbers to come are affected- not the
climbers that have already passed.
Angus asked how climbers could clip
the bolts while aid climbing and think they have done WDD. He likened it
to using a long cheater stick, which is also a personal choice. He
stressed personal choice again and again, which I agreed with completely,
and bemoaned the "sheriffs" that have always appointed themselves the
interpreters of fixed rules in a dynamic, evolving sport.
Another reason that I haven't brought up my discussions with Angus is that
this situation must stand on its own. What if it was one of Harding's
routes? Do we leave it exactly like he did, in a "mausoleum mind-set"?
Who could seriously argue that he was against bolts? Again, reverence for
the past, allegiance to the future.
Also, there are fanatics on both sides. I got an e-mail from someone who
I have never met and has never done a wall who paraphrased the Zen saying,
"Chop 100 bolts, put in 101". Sounds like nobody "wins" ,but for sure the
rock loses- and, by extension, so do we all.
Stay hungry- Todd Skinner"
Peace
Karl
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:50am PT
|
Wes- you might have more success with us old folks if you'd quit calling us names. We might be a little sensitive about our delicate "condition". Your logic isn't too bad (although logic is not the only criteria in climbing matters), but you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If you want to go route-by-route and have some sort of representative community body decide the fate of each route, that would be fine, so long as the governing body included a large number of climbers from all perspectives; those climbers have all led the route in question (so they can relate to the qualities of experience promoted by the climb in its' runout condition); and a super-majority vote was required to implement any changes. Just my opinion. It is an offer in compromise...
-OldJello (but I still wiggle when I'm poked)
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:58am PT
|
Reasonable discussion? Try again. It's rather disagreeable to have a discussion with someone who so openly has his head up his a$$.
Let's sharpen this up. Enough whining about a lack of direction. You want to set routes up for mass consumption based on some criteria. What's it going to be, brainiac?
Is it bolt spacing after a quality review of the route using a meter stick? Futuristic utility bolt marshalls (complete with stainless steel stars) that are able to draw and shoot wherever and whenever necessary? Or is it a posse of marshalls that decides and can they ride from area to area far from their plastic ranches?
Based on your position thus far, the first routes declared stupid and worthy of being utility bolted are by necessity, the ones with the best climbing. The issue is entirely one of popularity to you. The problem is that those four star run out face climbs are exactly the ones that need to stay that way. As shown by the abundant qualified testimony on this thread, the quality of experience and freedom of movement provided by bold climbs is invaluable to many climbers.
Sorry, but if you refuse to acknowledge the value of this type of climbing, you're in a poor position to be promoting the alteration of historic climbs.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 02:59am PT
|
"equip - provided or fitted out with what is necessary or useful or appropriate"
Weschrist: Necessary, useful, or appropriate... all open to interpretation.
Weschrist - you're right, it is all open to interpretation. Where our interpretations obviously differ is that most of us old folk believed some routes often needed to be heavily 'equipped' with hard to come by internal resources rather than easily acquired external ones. And some of us old folk are still putting up routes with that same style and approach.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2006 - 03:02am PT
|
so weschrist,
what is your point? what do you want? you dont need anyones acceptance, do you? surely if you dont want WB's, jstans, jello's etc etc, then what is it that you are looking for here?
add some bolts, remove some bolts.
someone wont like what you did and may do the same.
the thing i have been wondering when climbers bring up views like yours is who decides on the number of bolts on a route? is it anarchy? must we convene a rock committee to decide? who decides who is on the committee? perhaps we model it after our own system of government, surely climbers won't be "political" about who gets to place bolts and who does not.
i am open to embracing a way that protects adventure and protects the rock. your argument seems to be that some climbers may die on runout routes. i maintain that they will find a waqy to die regardless of how runout a route is. please show data if this is your conclusion but i dont see it.
in my opinion the FA is not sancrosanct. but IMO it is not acceptable to add bolts where others have climbed without. simple really. must all climbing become steralized with safety bolts to satisfy the masses? if this is the case dont call it rock climbing. perhaps rock gymnastics or xtreme climbing would fit the mindset and provide that positive feeling needed to make one feel like they are dong something really cool.
i have nothing against sport climbing. but i do have an interest in maintaining what is left of what simply was called rock climbing.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!