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BPorter
Big Wall climber
Quartz Hill, Ca
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Sep 24, 2006 - 07:55pm PT
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Hey Ron,
I fell asleep for a couple days and when I woke up I found myself back on this thread. Anyways, you wrote something a ways back...
"I don't give a rat's azz if somebody does those routes free or not, but when you beat on something you change it and saying "but so and so did it first" doesn't justify YOUR continuing the degradation.
Its not elitism to suggest that once a route goes clean people shouldn't beat on it any more. Its merely good manners."
I have a penchant for getting an attitude with those I perceive as being elitists. But, elitist or not, you are right on the money with this comment and I completely agree.
Cheers
Cracko
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 24, 2006 - 08:24pm PT
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If I'm an elitist its a pretty large elite,...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 25, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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There are apparently more glitches in Mimisoft. It must have run out of memory because it keeps asking questions that have been answered repeatedly. Turing Test fail alert!
Then it starts babbling about some "Dick" person or other. Very strange. I swear the program is overwriting code segment memory.
There is some reference to a solo ascent of Washington Column prior to WoS, which might refer to me, given the context, but I can't be sure. If the reference is to me, though, this would be yet more evidence of glitches in Mimisoft. Bad AI for sure. If I was anywhere near the server that hosts Mimisoft, I would expect to see smoke curling from from its innards. Ten days?
When I soloed WC, I spent two days on it, which was actually the typical time spent by a team of two in those days. And, of course, that was way before active cams, TCUs, etc. So, who knows what random sparks and shorts are taking place inside of that poor server? Prolly best to shut it down before it starts a fire. I do hope that Mimisoft can be salvaged, of course, and restarted on a better machine.
Oh, and BTW, if my ass is so sorry (and Mark's even more sorry than mine), then why has WoS blown so many supposedly good climbers out of the saddle? Still waiting for a second ascent.
Perhaps SG can load Mimisoft up on his Palm Pilot (which ought to have more memory than Mimisoft current has at its disposal, given what I've observed so far), and then he can have company as he attempts the first clean ascent of WoS. He can prolly program Mimisoft to coo comforting words as he takes yet another 50+ foot whipper down the slab: "Yes, Steve, that was your left arm you left back up there on that knob. But it's ok. Don't worry. I'm here for you, and, good news: now you are lighter, so the hooks might hold you better. Oh, and by the way, You Are Awesome, Steve!"
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Sep 25, 2006 - 03:13am PT
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gym climbing is safer. Thanks for the post Ammon.
EDIT...I did not read the whole post.
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Maţţ
Big Wall climber
Kiev
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Sep 25, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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"you guys show up with no experience to speak of, at the base of a route that is generally low angle"
What route was this? Can you give some background about it?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 25, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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OMG here we go.
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JimmyRay
climber
Texas
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Sep 25, 2006 - 04:32pm PT
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I’m a climber from Dallas with 9 El Cap routes under the belt. That’s my experience, no more… no less. As the Valley is beyond weekend warrior distance for me, my reality is that if I fail to make my annual objective, then I tend to get the whole subsequent year to dwell on it. As a result, I tend to be very motivated, and treat my big walls very business-like (within the context of having a blast mind you), both in terms of objective selection & logistical preparedness. Thus my feedback to the original statements in this thread is based on such a user dynamic, one that is probably not to uncommon out there? Regardless, it speaks to some of the arguments articulated within.
Shield
In May 1998, the rivets that link the second & third cracks on the Shield’s Triple Cracks pitch were missing in action? To this day, I wonder what the story was behind the absence of such mission-critical fixed gear… anyway, the first hole was plucked clean, & the second hole was filled flush with metal… and as a result, my forward progress was abruptly halted.
Before starting the wall, the beta around the camp fire was go lean on pins & heads, and certainly no need to carry a rivet kit for such a trade route, etc., etc. So that’s what we did, purposely skimping by design… with the motto that we’d rather retreat than over-pound-kill. I must say, when faced with the impasse, smack dab in the middle of the Headwall, said motto was a hard lump to swallow. With nary a bat hook, cheater stick, rivet kit or enabling gear-solution to escape the impasse, we basically hung out for the best parts of two days trying to be sly, witty & clever, but to no avail. Make no mistake: if the expected fixed gear was there or if we’d had brought proper backup gear, we’d been out of there with a song & a whistle, but without the right gear for the job… we’ll Tommy Caldwell we’re not. I’ll submit to you that the impasse had meager to do with skill, or lack thereof… but if skeptical, next time you’re up there, contemplate gaining that third crack without those two rivets… and see what you think? Rapping the Groove with the pigs told us all that we needed to know about how difficult retreat was going to be. About that time, we noticed another team coming up the corner below… due to the steepness of the Headwall, we had assumed that we were alone… and low and behold they had heard about the blown rivets in Camp 4, and had come prepared. Ultimately, we worked out deal with them, where we fixed the Groove and Triple Cracks for them, and they let us replace the rivets, and keep our position. Thanks to them, and them alone, we got our summit. Derive what you will, but the moral of the story for me was to put a little extra in the bottom of the haul bag.
After the Shield, that’s exactly what I did… In 2000, with the same partner, I did Mescalito hammer-less (at least by my definition) in 4 bivies. Speaking personally, the fact that the hammer, pins & rivet kit were in the bottom of the bag didn’t subtract from the game… indeed, the name of the game was not to play that card… and the higher we got, the more diligent we became. We were basically climbing on egg shells by the last pitch, so as not to blow a mission-critical fixed piece, and botch our progressively-illuminating goal. (I can only imagine how thin those egg shells would have been if we didn’t have backup.) Thanks to other parties that had yielded the hammer before us… and I must admit hybrid Aliens… we got our summit with the hammer-driven stuff buried in the bottom of the bag for the duration. Derive what you will, but the moral of the story for me was that just because you take backup gear, doesn’t mean you have to play the card.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 25, 2006 - 05:06pm PT
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Jimmy Ray,
hammerless is better style than clean as it shows more committment, though perhaps the analogy of free vs free-solo is a bit extreme.
But committment has its down side.
You are to be commended, and I certainly don't see YOU as part of the problem, indeed from your actions you appear to be part of the solution.
What bugs me are the people that hold up precedent as an excuse to continue abuse already proved unnecessary blindly denying their own selfishness. Then they disparage me because they can't understand the difference between Style and ethics.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Sep 25, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
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What also bugs me are the people who disparage others for their style of climbing and try to pass it off as ethics.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Sep 25, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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nice post jimmyray. i used to live in dallas, i miss the witchita's greatly!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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Very good Jimmyray.
To sit here calling your ascent of Mescalito unworthy simply because you carried insurance is in my mind BS.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
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For god's sake, you're in Chicago - you miss every place greatly. At least they have gyms now and you get to climb stuff for work. When I lived there, there were no gyms. Long drives and climbing were synonymous...
 from an ex-Windy City resident
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:14pm PT
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Jeezuz... Why don't some of you folks get out and climb instead of hashing the same crap out over and over and over. Are you really convinced that *today* is the day it's going to matter and a difference be made?
Plenty here agree with the "ethic" and support it. Most didn't agree with the attack used to get the thread going. The two are completely separate issues,as has been stated here over and over. But just as any other spud has the right to go on and on about his opinion or ethic or what-have-you, also do all of the rest of us spuds have the same right to say the attack was bullsh#t. Get the f*#k over it already.
As I stated earlier, most people do the best they can, least amount of damage (clean as possible), yadda, yadda, yadda. What the f*#k else do you wankers want?! Get off your asses, quit bitching, pissing and moaning and go outside and climb. Armchair quarterbacks are pretty much worthless, eh.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
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Yeah God damnit. There's cliffs to be eroded! You didn't want to just leave 'em the way they are do you?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:38pm PT
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hahaha... Exactly, Ron! >;)
So, why *is* your name Piton Ron if you're now so opposed to pins and crusading for clean aid climbing?
Just ribbin' ya, as you should already know by now, Ron.
Cheers, eh.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
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Just one of the paradoxes of life evil one. I sometimes use pins to create places for nuts, other times in drilled holes. I categorically deny that it has anything to do with any of my work in adult films.
EDIT: Since I know this will be followed by references to various piton sizes let me preface these with an assurance of neither rurp nor bong (although often smoked).
Remember those sleek beautiful pins made by Dolt? Rare and wonderful things.
The long dong?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 25, 2006 - 06:57pm PT
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lol. The lost PR films? Would that make it a lost arrow? =)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 25, 2006 - 07:43pm PT
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perhaps a RURP?
hahaha
just kidding.
now where were we? wasnt someone supposed to get flamed here? where is all the fun.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 25, 2006 - 10:32pm PT
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JimmyRay,
Right freaking on man! You get from an adventure what you are willing to contribute to it. You are clearly doing your best, come hell or high water, to stick to your goals. In return you get to enjoy the deep satisfaction of a challenge well met. No regrets, no bullsh#t. Moving up like a hawk in a thermal. Big wall climbing is pretty wild stuff and it takes a while before the exposure goes away and you can really get to tinkering with the widgets.
Sounds like The Shield gave you the total experience, the agony, and the ecstasy. The possibility of a drilled anchor failure exists on most routes, so carrying a narrow Logan hook or BD Talon is mandatory. The sheared off remnant can sometimes be pushed deeper to make space. I have had several bolt failures in 36 years and don't assume anything. Whether to carry a hammer and bolt kit or a wire coathanger (to bypass a single failed placement), or none of the above, are all decisions that affect the certainty of the outcome and hence, the adventure level.
Glad it didn't send you down. No fun at all bailing from there.
Had Mescalito been done without pounding before you tried it? I am trying to recall the particulars on that route clean.
Thanks for posting partner.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 26, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
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Mimisoft wrote: “Do you consider yourselves as great or visionary wall climbers with respect to WOS and WOC; your two contributions to El Cap history?”
That’s three contributions, Mimi, as you forgot Ring of Fire, another clip-up you might enjoy. (Wait, wait, isn’t that four, as I bagged the first real ascent of Horse Play?)
“Your accounts of WOS … seems like an otherwise hellish and confusing experience.”
Hellish mostly from the way we were treated. Overall the climb was quite clarifying for me. Sorry you found it confusing.
”When you sat on the ground … gazing upward, what were your goals with respect to … that grand stage?”
Right freaking on man! You get from an adventure what you are willing to contribute to it. My goal was to clearly do my best, come hell or high water, to stick to my goals. In return I got to enjoy the deep satisfaction of a challenge well met. No regrets, no bullsh#t. Moving up like a hawk in a thermal. Big wall climbing is pretty wild stuff and it takes a while before the exposure goes away and you can really get to tinkering with the hooks.
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