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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 12, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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this was tragic but i am thinking it could have been worse.
if the first guy does not pull the knot, and the second guy does, then we could have lost both climbers.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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May 12, 2010 - 04:34am PT
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Pete I agree,
It also makes me shiver just hearing the pull cord setup described as "a backup knot."
I've rapped El Cap with a 5 mil cord with this setup. I still dislike it and consider this an emergency system. I got so anal with it we used climbing tape over the gate of a locking carabiner to make sure there was no way it could unscrew. It is the primary system holding the rope to the anchor. The thought of only tying it as a backup here sounds terrifyingly scary to think if I was on the rope.
Also rapping on a 6 mil tyed to a 10 mil like it is a regular double rope rap setup has got to make you step back and think you have a 6 mil cord going though a belay device cringe? It is a matter of time till an accident.
There are 2 rappel techniques that require very cautious and attentive execution: The pull cord rappel retrieval method and 2. Simul rappelling. Both require high attention with minimal margin for error. I encourage friends to not use these during regular day to day climbing. Best saved to escape a storm or get down off an aborted alpine push.
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EvanM
Trad climber
Harpers Ferry, WV
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May 12, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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My sincerest condolences go out to Brian's friends and family. Losing a friend, son, and teacher is devastating to say the least, and these loses take a lot of time to recover from, if we ever truly do recover. From his friends he sounds like a great guy, someone I would have liked to meet. We are fortunate though when someone we love has so many good qualities, it makes it all the more enjoyable to hold their memory close to our hearts for the many years that follow in their absence.
Also my sincerest thanks to those that have been providing a lot of detailed reliable information about the accident, and also providing the links to the sites with the valuable information. I have learned a lot from this tragedy, and imagine there are many others that have as well.
This community is like none I've ever seen before, I'm proud to be apart of it. That being said, I feel connected with those in this sport and feel saddened by one of our own passing away.
Rest in peace.
--
Evan
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Rockin' Gal
Trad climber
Boulder
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May 12, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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I have read this thread numerous times, downloaded the Petzl catalog and finally understand what happened. Last weekend a climber hit the deck next to me in Boulder Canyon. Luckily, she will be fine. It's a serious game we play.
Thank all of you for your posts.
Vaya con Dios, Brian.
Sally
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 12, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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"I have read this thread numerous times, downloaded the Petzl catalog and finally understand what happened."
Good on you. Everyone else who does not have the Petzl catalogue please do the same, as it will help you stay alive.
Cheers,
Pete
Just like Petzl - Firstly a caver, secondly a climber
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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In reading this entire thread and Japhy's account of what transpired this looks to me like an accident waiting to happen. The fact that the two climbers rappelled using two different techniques(removing the backup knot and carabiner during each rappel) appears to me to be the single greatest contributing factor to the accident.
What I take from this incident is that it is best to try and keep things as simple as possible. Introducing unnecessary complexity greatly increases the chance for an accident.
Bruce
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Old5Ten
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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Just found out about this accident. My sincere condolences to Brian's family, friends, and students. Sounds like Brian was a gifted teacher, who inspired others. Carry on his torch!
A couple technical thoughts. I've actually been in a single rap/double rap situation a few times and a simple way to avoid the fatal accident scenario is to fix the single line (larger diameter) for the first person rappelling. All it takes is a couple of reversed and opposed biners on a bight into the equalized ring or sling. Then the second person removes the fixing biners and raps double strand. A second thought is that of bringing a 6mm tag line. Why? In the big scheme of things (cragging in the Valley, not cutting edge alpinism) the weight/bulk savings are truly negligible. If you bring another skinny but lead worthy rope you've increased your options and safety margin so much more...
Old5Ten
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 17, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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My hearfelt condolences to family, friends, and those at the scene. I am so sorry for your loss.
Japhy,
That is one of the most incredible posts I have ever read.
It was outstanding for many reasons:
Using this as an opportunity to learn and teach other about what went wrong to prevent it happening again.
Very well written, clear, concise, detailed, and explains the reasons behind everything.
And it shows you are dealing with this tragedy in a constructive and healthy way.
I hope your hand(s) is doing ok. I know how bad a minor rope burn hurts and can't imagine how bad yours is. You were incredibly brave trying to grab the rope.
And finally, I lost a good friend in an accident too. It was tough for me to deal with because although I knew that he made his own choices, I kept going over how I could have prevented it. I couldn't not blame myself, becuase I knew I made a mistake not stopping what happened. I finally was able to come to grips with it by forgiving myself, like I knew my friend would want and I knew I would want the same if the situation was reversed.
All the best,
Steve
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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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May 17, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Just now had the opportunity to read through this thread.
Japhy, thank you for sharing. My heart goes out to you and Brian's family and all who were involved.
Peace
JohnR
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Dave Kerr
Trad climber
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May 17, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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First of all deepest condolences to all those affected by this. My thoughts are with you.
As a brit I thought it might be useful for me to add my ten cents to this discussion as we use a very different system. When I visited the valley 5 years ago I climbed with some americans who commented on how it differed from their norm but also on it's advantages.
I'll go into it in as much detail as I can as I realise there are novices and experts alike on the forums.
I and many others climb all our trad on 2 x 50 or 60m half ropes. These are 8-9mm diameter. Unlike twin ropes which must both be clipped into every anchor halfs are UIAA rated to be clipped individually. The big advantage of this is on wandering routes or routes with pro to the left and right of the line. You can clip one rope for part of it and the other for the rest meaning less drag as your rope line is straighter. See here for a pic: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=103368 the yellow rope clipped on the left the orange one unclipped until the step right was made when it will come into play.
When it comes to rapping one rope is passed through the anchor and joined to the other with an overhand knot (EKD to you). You then rap on both ropes using whatever back up you prefer (french prussik, shunt etc). When the next station is reached by the last climber the end of the rope you are pulling is fed through the anchor and pulled through until the knot is close up to the anchor ring. The ends are then thrown down and you're ready to go.
Safety advantages of this system would be that the EKD is less likely to invert as the ropes are of very similar diameter and differential slippage does not occur for the same reason. Also the knot does not need to be retied at each station (provided it is still sound) saving time and eliminating a potential source of error.
My theory is that this evolved (or was adopted) in the UK as many routes are wandering affairs whereas Stateside more of your routes are straight up cracks where double ropes confer no advantage in reducing drag.
I hope this is of help to folks. I'm happy to answer any questions you've got and hear your comments.
Dave
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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Sheesh Japh, I don't know how you're able to function, let alone, write a detailed accident account of what happened! Sounds like its time to take some time off and grieve. I'll say a prayer for you right now.
Seek the Truth,
Gary
Spring Valley, CA
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Neal Harder
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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It seems to me that the EDK is a poor choice for a knot-block system. The great advantage of this knot is that it is flat on one side, so that it has a smaller chance of getting stuck on things: exactly what you DON'T want if you are relying on the knot getting stuck on the rappel ring.
I have not done any testing to prove that a follow-through figure-8 or a double-fisherman's would not pop through a gigantic ring when weighted, but it seems much less likely to happen than with an EDK or any knot with a "flat" side.
Comments?
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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May 17, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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My sympathy and condolences to the family, friends and students of Brian.
Thank you very much to Zeth and Japhy for posting their experiences and thoughts. I hope the sharing helps in the sorting out process.
Brian sounded like a very fine person, whose influence will live on through many others.
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roy
Social climber
New Zealand -> Santa Barbara
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May 17, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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My sincere condolences to the family and friends of Brian.
Roy
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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May 17, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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Neal Harder, the type of knot is inconsequential if a locking carabiner is used in the system. The EDK is a fine a knot for this purpose, but the lesson to be learned from this tragedy is not that the EDK was used, but that a locking carabiner was not.
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That Darn French Guy
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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RIP Brian.
I also feel very sorry for all those who witnessed the horror as it unfolded, including Japhy. I heard about this on sunday from park services workers.
Technically I also question the safety of the technique as described by Japhy when they were doing it "properly":
"A backup knot - figure 8 on a bight - is just below the two overhands on the 6mm"
The backup figure 8 should be on the lead line, the tag line should never enter the climbing/rapping system.
If I'm proven right, please correct the description posted so no one else uses it. I believe the proper setup was posted earlier in the thread as such:
That means EDK or fisherman, the knot to the tag line is irrelevant. Even where the tag line is attached is irrelevant as long as you can pull it down. A failure of that know would mean you have to climb up the lead rope to retrieve it.
My 2 cents.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 17, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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TDFG- "My 2 cents."
Shouldn't that be a locking biner?
EDIT: I am aware of the fact that "it's for illustrating a point"...
Just considering the possibility of some first timer/kid etc. checking out the site.
No "point" in getting huffy...scuffy!!
I was aware 99.999% would be aware of that...
Just pointing out the obvious...no disrespect meant!
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scuffy b
climber
Where only the cracks are dry
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May 17, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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It's for illustrating a point. Some people might want two links, some
might even want the anchor attached to something, some might want it
on rock instead of on a floor...
The point is which rope should have the bight and biner.
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That Darn French Guy
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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TripL7, good catch. It should.
Indeed my point is no back-up using the tag line.
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