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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 25, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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"Previously you called the ground-up ethic so “1980’s”. Yeah, and it is also so 1970’s, 1960’s, 1950’s . . "
I thought it would be cute to mention the first ascent of Lost Arrow starting from it's top but heck, that was controversial at the time too
Peace
karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 25, 2008 - 03:17pm PT
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Lost Arrow Spire FA was in the 40's, I believe.
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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Apr 25, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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DMT wrote:
"Pretty simple... no one owns that rock, so called locals, so called Bay Area faggots, uber doobers from Austria, NO ONE."
But left out: way homo sperm burpers from Fresno. They should be included.
-JR
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 25, 2008 - 05:02pm PT
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yo,
i think "Bay Area faggots" and "Uber Doobers from Austria" would be cool route names, fwiw.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 25, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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"mungeclimber i don't necessarily agree that bolts to nowhere are botch jobs. if they become huge aid drilled bolt ladders, well, that might not be the prettiest thing. i think its one of sj and dr's argument to go topside, they respected the rock enough to not place unnessary bolts indiscrimantely on the face. i kinda buy it."
aye, fair enough, I've not been up there, nor could I climb at that level for that sustained amount of slabbage. Feel the calf burn.
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climbactic
climber
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Apr 26, 2008 - 08:12am PT
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Whew! Talk about the Gates of Delirium! I just waded through the ENTIRE thing in two days. Full disclosure: I'm not a climber though I've been dragged up a few easy classics, Snakedike, Royal Arches, Cathedral Peak and even Overhang Bypass... After living around climbers for almost 30 years I would normally never deign to comment on a forum that includes contributions by significant climbing royalty (especially after Russ Walling's brutally hilarious synopsis) but after literally reading the whole thing out of fascination I feel I've paid my dues plus I'm posting for the good of everyone (!)
This has been a great thread, Cosgrove shouting "Thief!", Bachar's naked emperor analogies, Doug R.'s full soul-searching disclosure, Sean's signature stream-of-consciousness, and where would this rant be without Karl Babaji's "enlightening" and measured philosophical musings, sounds like he and a lot of others had much fun. Even Steve Schneider made a late appearance and broke ranks with the "old school". I think my favorite comment was by Kevin Worrall, "Some people inherently cling to the past and tradition and are threatened by change and new ideas. Others see new things with an open mind and welcome a fresh perspective. The latter rarely impose their morals on the former. That's human nature."
I caught on to madbolter1's extreme sarcasm pretty quick "Come on herd!" it was damned funny, that! I forgot to mention Werner's often cryptic posts, the one about the Bachar document for establishing "ground-up" rules was particularly mysterious...
Was Bill Russell in there? Ken Yager? Great posts by Blair D. and Ben Montoya.
It's been groovy. Thanks so much!
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 27, 2008 - 12:09am PT
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Alright, enough talking. Let’s get off the computers and into the wilderness to do to some serious camping.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 27, 2008 - 12:26am PT
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Sean and Coz last posts seem to have canclled each other out.
Looks like you all will have to start all over again from the begining .......
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:23am PT
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GU, has nothing in common, it is a low angle slab that can be stance drilled. THE SOUTHERN BELLE WAS ALL DRILLED ON STANCE, ALL EXCEPT ONE BOLT ON THE SECOND PITCH.
No, actually, it has one thing in common at the very least - it was rap bolted just like your JTree routes. IMHO grade has little rational in this arguement but that point is probably moot to you. It's all relative to your own *personal* perspective.
1. When you drill on stance the bolt is always in the right place, it's harder to stop and drill then to just clip.
I agree here. But it would be ignorant to assume that their bolts are "misplaced". With due consideration it's rather easy to also place bolts on rap in the "right" (clipping) place. In fact, it's rather easy to "assume" that bolts are in the right place and in fact in more "right" places for clipping (though reducing the sack-up-I-gonna-die-if-I-fall value).
2. All other ascents use binos and studied the face to find the right way, and never got lost.
Simply, Doug and Sean rap-bolted a climb that could have been done, stance drilling, all their arguments are not logical in the face of the facts. I am greatly shocked that anyone would buy their arguments, all of them have been proven wrong.
No, this is a blanket statement. To say it "could have been done" that way, well, I call BS. You don't know. You were not there. You didn't attempt. Your statement is essentially nothing more than an opinion without factual knowledge and is as meaningful as all of my rant here (READ: worthless on the grand scheme of things).
They took a big step backwards, and their rational, money and time; they lack any kind of real respect for the future and their act was far from self-less.
I'm sure you noticed that some agree and others do not. Why? 99% of the climbing population would never sack-up and go do SB. Sissies. Oh well. Concensus says that most of us are happy to take a risk but not a death-risk. Such is life (which, I really sort of like).
I feel the bolts should be removed by the first descent party, and the mighty face be climb on it's own terms. The South Face is one of the last great places to climb, in free-stance style.
We all gather that. I hope they are not removed. I hope to read of reports of the second, third, 27th ascent and have people rave about the route. One thing I do know is there is a riduculous amout of rock out there. That Doug and Sean ethically did something "wrong" (to some) means little to me. Adventure at the cutting edge of death is missing from this route.
I find it very sad that no one seems to respect anything anymore, maybe it's the times or lack of education. Maybe the mindless media has turn us into spirt-less drones.
Respect? Do you mean like respect as in the rules in Yosemite that there will be no motorized drilling? Our arguement as to rap VS. ground-up affects very little. Your bust on EC could have had major implications with respect to our collective access to climbing in Yosemite. Where was the respect there?!?!? (different because you felt the Park rules unfair? [VS well founded {laugh} eithical rules]) I call hypocrasy plain and simple. Your actions with a motorized drill on EC risks way more to our sport than Doug and Sean's can even touch. The opioniated stance you take bothers me.
Just my thoughts, DR and Sean if you did the climb on stances and protected it well, you wouldn't have to tell the world what great climbers you are - they would know, be humble and do the right thing.
Scott, I've watched you from afar - 20+ years climbing - and have to draw difference with you in this case. Times change. People change. Sh#t happens. I'd love to make you sushi one day and discuss. My opinion is nothing personal on anybody ever. But I'm sure my comments didn't make a friend. My commments stink just like everyone else. Oh well... I'm sticking to them.
Peace, Nature
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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Apr 27, 2008 - 02:22am PT
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Of topic: Does anyone know if the threads are hangin' on E.L.D?
Back to Dihedral Wall: Does anyone know if Todd added those free climbing bolts on lead or on rap?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 27, 2008 - 10:51am PT
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You're right, Werner, he does like it. Hi coz!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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Coz, you should go out there and repete Southern bell and then climb GU. Then you can tell us which one is more fun;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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That was kind of my point. Does the world really need more routs that even the FA won't repete?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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tradman, you can still toprope it. hike to the top. no one has to lead everything. cheers.
coz, I wouldn't say this... "the ends justify the means, and all morals and values are out the window." even in jest. people will think you have changed your mind and accepted it for the area. you personally don't have to accept. Others may. We all might accept it, but you definitely don't have to.
 edit - reread, for sarcasm. check
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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one more post for pushing to 2k
it's the principle, you see.
quantity has a quality all its own.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Apr 27, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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I have read every post, some more than once.
A highlight for me was Tom Higgins sharing with us some wonderful remembrances of time spent with Bob Kamps. I have about .01 cents worth to add to his words. I bouldered regularly with Bob at Stoney point for about ten years. I was fortunate to rope up with him a few times in Josh, Tahquitz Rock, and even once in The Meadows. Bob set such a high bar regarding matters of style. It meant nothing to Bob Kamps if you, or he, could get up a hard set of moves. It only counted if you made it look easy!
What is the relevance of such a sense of style? It sharpens the game.
Much has been said here to the point that the next generation should and will do things in a different style than their predecessors. Few are willing to take the stand however that certain “new” styles are changes for the better, while others are regressive. Take the clean climbing revolution, certainly an example of a progression in style. How about Alex Honnold’s recent accomplishments both on sight leading and free soloing! Pushing standards in style beyond a doubt.
In the past few years there have been so many amazing developments. El Cap, recently the domain of the aid climber now has numerous free routes being done in a day. People are climbing without bolts, and sometimes without any protection at all on harder climbs than ever before. Name who you will. Pick what examples suit you. We all know what is going on. Free climbing is being revolutionized. Just as it has been in the past and will be in the future. The best climbers are refining and sharpening the game every day. And those whom I admire the most are capable of discerning what style of ascent is the best path towards their goal. And they understand that a goal has no meaning without context.
This is the arena which two climbers, neither one of them exactly a representative of the next generation, stepped into when they decided to do a top down ascent on the great South Face of Half Dome. Sean Jones and DR have argued, with passion and eloquence, the reasons for their choice. Yet their actions leave climbers wrestling with many questions.
Is it true, as Nature says, that Coz’ rap bolting a one pitch 5.14 sport climb in Joshua Tree is no different than establishing a climb like GU from the top down?
Is there something about certain walls, such as SFHD, which set them apart from other climbing venues? How one feels about this will lead one to or away from the conclusion that this new route somehow takes something away from the entire face.
Does every rock wall need to be climbed regardless of the tactics required to create a route which is acceptable to a majority of climbers?
(Of course my phrasing of these questions betrays my feelings… )
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 27, 2008 - 04:20pm PT
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coz, I've ready both Collapse and Guns Germs and Steele. Where is the connection here?
The only real climbing is ground-up, onsight, free soloing, using only your hands and feet for upward progress. Everything else is a concession of some sort, and a shade of gray. So why are any of us arguing about this?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Apr 27, 2008 - 04:26pm PT
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Sean asked me to post his topo for him. This should be good for another round.
Have at it.
Ken
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Apr 27, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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sweet,
i was worried this thread would be just a line of bolts to nowhere-
but now i can easily see the path to the summit (2K posts, that is), and the weather looks good...
(note to self: return in about 103 posts)
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 27, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Got the map, now if ever I learn to face climb...
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