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Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Back in the mix
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Apr 23, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
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Steve, please tell me Heather didn't think all those spr0t climbs in Thailand were ground up.
the problem is rap bolting promotes more routes w/many bolts.
yosemite climbers have a "leave no trace" climbing style.
haha, that is hilarious. Ever go aid climbing? Nothing like a bolt ladder or a string of heads to scream out "NO TRACE".
It's purely a matter of personal belief. To believe it's more than that is ridiculous.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 23, 2008 - 09:52pm PT
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"leave no trace"
Definately a funny there.
What has prevented the valley from being grid bolted isn't so much the ground up ethic, as the ban on power drills. Nothing like hand drilling 3/8" holes in hard granite to stymie all but the most truly motivated.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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Steve
Evilution, hahaha
You sure have me pegged wrong.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 12:15am PT
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shipoopoi, looks like you are trying to have it both ways:
”i don't think one rap route on half dome is going to change things”
Ah, but when Kauk does a rap route in Yosemite, that, you assert, is a precedence showing that things are changing and should be accepted as such.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Apr 24, 2008 - 12:50am PT
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[strike]The proliferation of all the rabbits shows the lack of predators in their habitat. This shift will continue until an outside force, such as disease, curbs the current trend. The influence of predators culling back the rabbits won't happen until the humans relax the pressure applied to them.[/strike]
Oh....never mind....I thought this was the rabbit thread.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Apr 24, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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you know whats funny, this thread is going to make rap bolting anything a big reward in the forum world, so now it gets even worse!
i mean rock climbers are ego junkies, they live only for themselves...
they forgo f = ma for a shot at missed motherly love, but the big time never comes,,,
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 24, 2008 - 01:26am PT
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Why is a set of bolts on perfectly good rock that leads to nowhere, or rather more specifically, no particular place, always seen as a botch job? Every half pitch route that goes up to a set of anchors would be a botch job on that standard. We enjoy those just the same.
If a line can't go GU in a GU area, it's ok to not have the route go to the summit, or rather not come from the summit.
Again, it's not that rap bolting in general is bad, but it seems if there is to be 'space' enough for 'both' types, then we need to reserve that space for GU hand bolting on slabs by not setting precedents that condone a rap style.
But hey, I didn't see anyone else with motivation getting up doing routes on that face (not that I even have enough energy to hike up to Liberty Cap)
Maybe it's time to try and do another line up there in a GU effort all the way this time. It will be hard, and it will take many people's efforts. Send up a stuntman with helmut, come back down, send up the next stuntman. Loads of fun!
Best all,
M
ps- I'm just pushing to 2k posts.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 24, 2008 - 09:26am PT
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I'm truly hoping that those with less skill and experience than DR and SJ, don't start to think it's open season. It doesn't seem to be the case though.
I'm also starting to think that unless a really serious trad team strikes the next blow with something ground up and high quality, we'd better just leave these guys some peace.....
and keep our pie holes shut.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 10:23am PT
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Thanks, Steve, for chiming in with support. Of course I like it, because you're huge experience and seasoned viewpoint comes down on our side.
And it also helps me see that I've been a little unbalanced in my response here, rising up to defend against detractors but more silent when someone agrees with us.
So thanks for the support. Thanks to Steve and to everyone else who'se spoken up here. And to the silent majority choosing only to lurk who also agree. Thanks all! I liked this line:
...god, protesting over rap bolting is like, so nineteen-eighties. this war was lost a long time ago in tuolumne...
Decades later, and the sky hasn't fallen. No grid-jobs, even in the Valley. Plenty of blank rock left -- here, Tuolumne, on Half Dome -- to be climbed in either style.
Peace.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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I gave a few examples of routes done in GU style in RMNP and 10-15 years later...much to the disdain of the critics...the sky hasn't fallen there and there has not been a rash of rapped-placed bolts ladders/routes.
Doing these types routes is just way too much work that a large percentage of climbers won't/don't do.
Nice post Steve.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 11:48am PT
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(survival wrote)
"I'm truly hoping that those with less skill and experience than DR and SJ, don't start to think it's open season. It doesn't seem to be the case though.
I'm also starting to think that unless a really serious trad team strikes the next blow with something ground up and high quality, we'd better just leave these guys some peace.....
and keep our pie holes shut."
I also, don't think we are going to see a bunch of sprout routes pop up everywhere because of GU. As I'm sure you all know how much time and effort it takes to put up even a small route and not botch the roots out of it. I think most climbers are repeaters rather than installers. The hay-day is over for the masses. Highly motivated climbers may run out and put up a new route here and there but they have to find it first. Especially if the route is going to be close enough to ding your car door on. There is plenty of rock 1 or so miles from the road that route farmers could plow. But they won't.
As far as a (TRAD) FA team striking the next blows. I have a sneaking suspicion that S.J. may be ready to strike. Be ready to soak up some venom and ready your pie hole.
hahahahaha
Blair.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
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I'm quite new to climbing and I'm somewhat bashful about posting to this thread seeing as how I have read books or magazine articles with many of you featured in them...and I have never done any first ascents of anything...yet-- but I wanted to weigh in just so far as to say that reading the amount of passion and well thought out logical concern that has gone into both sides of this debate really inspires me (hopefully others also)to not be flippant about issues of respect and ethics- something I feel is happening with a majority of "noob" climbers.
I feel that the consideration of ethics in the decision making process is ultimately more important than the final decision itself. If that consideration is maintained, then there will always be room for a variety of styles, and all will be applied responsibly albeit not universally.
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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Apr 24, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
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I would like to chop all of the (unnecessary free climbing bolts) on Dihedral Wall!!!
Do you guys prefer GROUND UP or RAP CHOPPING?
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Leavittator
climber
san diego, ca.
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Apr 24, 2008 - 04:21pm PT
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good one Brian. Someone who would like to chop it (Dihedral Wall) should climb it free and report to Tommy Caldwell which ones were superfluous. For me, I plan to (hopefully) climb Growing Up because I suspect it is a fantastic route.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 24, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Besides being too often stated, my opinion does not count. This is an interesting question however.
Whatever decision we make on bolts, I do think we might consider taking the hangers off say 10% of the most obviously self-serving placements, have them gold plated and reinstalled so that we may be reminded.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:03pm PT
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i'm with you, John, you have a wry wit!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:20pm PT
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DR: Decades later, and the sky hasn't fallen. No grid-jobs, even in the Valley.
not sure about that... reports filter in about "Nuts Only Cliff" which are not too good. And there are more and more lines with more and more bolts... I've been on some of those route FAs.
Fortunately, there are still pure crack lines out there... unclimbed or climbed and forgotten... which make excellent adventures.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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There you go Ed, stick to the crack routes, and it will all be fine.
Mind over matter=If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
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Hi Randy,
Glad you're interested in Growing Up. I know you'll like it.
Before he got sidetracked by snakebite, Sean was working your new route, that leaning corner .13d -- name's skipping me right now -- and he was raving about it.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 24, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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And there are more and more lines with more and more bolts... I've been on some of those route FAs.
Ed, are you saying that routes are growing new bolts? And bolts growing on Nuts Only??
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