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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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BTW: I aint no christian. I aint no Left Winger either. Just an independent thinker that is calling bullshet on the One World Scientific Gov't that claims it will save us all. Ironically, from ourselves. All the while, silently laughing to the One World Bank that they created.
The Chief, rather pathetic that you call yourself an "independent thinker." You spew stuff that others have brainwashed you into believing. Read this thread and pay special attention to the scientists who have posted here. Formulate your views based on facts, not hyperbola. Then you can label yourself a "thinker."
BTW, if you are worried about the folks "silently laughing to the One World Bank they have created," you're barking up the wrong tree. Take a look at who got TARP bailouts. Now that there is real money, stolen from us US taxpayers...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
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It's funny/sad that climate change deniers think that they've figured out that there is some great global scam to make money from preventing human caused climate change. Not realizing they have been scammed by PR firms hired by big oil to plant that idea in their heads.
It's funny/sad that climate change deniers always talk about "doomsday" and the "end of the world". One more friggin time: it's not about the end of the world it's about keeping the world in good shape for our children and future generations.
It's funny/sad that The Chief thinks humans can't screw up the planet. By his logic we could have a nuclear war with Russia and start a nuclear winter and wipe out humans altogether, but that's OK, because we might get hit by an asteroid anyway.
Why not just take craps on the ground and leave garbage in the backcountry? It doesn't matter right? A million years from now it will be decomposed.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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And K-Man, there are many "real live scientists" that proclaim differently than those that are pro AGW. But then, they are kooks, ignorant, bought and paid for etc etc etc and their word is unreliable. Right?
First, there are not "many" as you fallaciously claim. Second, they are bought. If you read this thread, the proof is there.
But what good are facts to an imbecile?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2011 - 02:41pm PT
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For the record I don't believe this is about intelligence.
It's about elaborate defense mechanisms people have constructed to deny things they don't want to face.
It's VERY common among right wingers in many aspects of their world view, but it's interesting to see it here with The Chief who seems like a reasonable/smart person on other topics but is fully invested in this strategy in regards to negative impacts on other people due to his desire for unrestricted resource consumption.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 25, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
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For the record I don't believe this is about intelligence.
It's about elaborate defense mechanisms people have constructed to deny things they don't want to face.
It's VERY common among right wingers in many aspects of their world view, but it's interesting to see it here with The Chief who seems like a reasonable/smart person on other topics but is fully invested in this strategy in regards to negative impacts on other people due to his desire for unrestricted resource consumption.
In other words...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
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This is very similar to the Ozone Depletion debate of the 80s, only the system is more complex (hence tougher to quantify and more uncertainty) and the opposition to doing anything is much better funded (the CFC industry doesn't have near the money/clout of the energy industry). So it's not surprising we have all the deniers.
The same arguments:
Man's impact is insignificant compared to nature
Alternatives are too expensive
The same motivation:
I don't want to pay more for air conditioners or spray cans just to keep people from getting cancer or cataracts.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
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If one does not go along with the AGW dogma, bam! They are instantly aligned with and being a RWer. And according to K-Man, just a plain old imbecile.
The Chief. First (answering a question upthread), I watched Gore's movie--once.
But more to the point--I never said anything about you being "aligned with and being a RWer." Nor do I say you must "go along with the AGW dogma." What I did say was to look at the scientific facts. Also, realize where the denier's get thier "facts" from.
Your approach to denying is why I, in a back-handed manner, called you an imbecile.
Here's another of your quotes:
Interesting how the proverbial demeaning comments begin to flow from the AGW crowd towards anyone that does not go along with their opinion.
Get this. It's not an "opinion," but rather a conclusion that I have come to based on facts. Your denying the basic facts, and calling them "opinion" gives me the impression of your wisdom.
But in fact, I think that the fet sez it much better than I:
It's about elaborate defense mechanisms people have constructed to deny things they don't want to face.
Go ahead and deny the facts that rigorous science has produced. In doing so, however, don't expect educated folks to get the impression that you are wise.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 25, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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And after all that hoopla, that giant hole is still down there over Antarctica. Last word is, it has gotten bigger.
Right. There is nothing we can do about it, no sense trying.
Nevermind that CFCs take 50 years or more to break down so the damage done will take a long time to correct, or that the hole would be MUCH bigger if nothing had been done. But you can't prove that right? It's all some mumbo jumbo science from the "One World Scientific Gov't".
You can't be expected to pay a few dollars more for refrigerant or a few cents more for spray cans just so some people won't get cancer.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Note to self: Leave the level-headed dialog regarding Luddites to Ed.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 25, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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Yeah, I don't know how he does it. I lost patience long ago.
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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May 25, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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So, Chief, when I visited Riverside as a 10 year old in early 70s, I remember how it hurt to take a deep breath and visibility was often limited because of the smog.
35 years later, it's a pretty different story in most of the LA Basin. Is this just chance or did deliberate human action have anything to do with it?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 25, 2011 - 08:54pm PT
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So, if nothing that happens here on earth is relevant to your spiritual journey to your "final existing place" which has "nothing to do with planet earth nor the ongoings of mankind" why are you so upset about what the scientific community says or does?
Why bother sounding off in this forum about how you don't like what some humans are doing if what humans do is so irrelevant to you? Why get all excited about people crapping up the wilderness (which I remember you doing in some other thread) if the fate of the earth has nothing to do with your own spiritual journey?
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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May 25, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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Such a combination of confused, contradictory beliefs and such absolute certitude is baffling.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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May 25, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
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Completely different ball game.
No.
It's just the difference between the pee-wee league and the major league.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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May 25, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
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You Climate Doomsday believers are freaking nuts.
Human behavior is too insignificant to cause climate change on the Earth.
Solar activity, the Earths orbit, and terrestrial volcano's are the things that can be expected to change our climate a little and are uncontrollable.
Adaptation is as easy as wearing a coat or not and planting crops later
or sooner to avoid frost.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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May 25, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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Dr F -Publicity of Christian broadcaster Harold Camping's doomsday prediction (+ failure) has predictably put another vampire stake into the heart of the global warming doomsday movement. Looks dead.
Time to move along.
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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May 25, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
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But what if you are wrong?
What if the green movement gets everything it wants and it is wrong.
We would be left with:
Clean air
Plentiful clean water
Ozone
Money stream would be diverted away from the mega wealthy.
Money power status quo broken up.
My great great grandchildren would have a nice, hopefully less crowded, place to live a great life.
What if the consume movement gets everything it wants and it is wrong.
Civilization on this planet ends as we know it.
I am conserving and hoping to be wrong.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 26, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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Ed, wasn't the Antarctic ozone hole (caused by chlorofluorocarbons) first found by a satellite in a polar orbit, in the early 1980s? One of its sensors came up with readings way off its scale, which they at first thought was due to a faulty instrument. It took a while to figure out what was actually happening?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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May 26, 2011 - 09:42am PT
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Deferring to and accepting the scientific consensus, at least for now, how are we going to get down to the level of carbon emissions necessary?
Current world average carbon emissions are something like four metric tons of CO2 per person per year. US average is 20, or so, metric tons. According to at least some of the scientific community, we need to get down to less than three metric tons per person, with our current world population.
Of course the world population is growing, but has often been projected to level off at 9 billion people in 2050, up from almost 7 billion now. That projection has recently been revised upward to 10 billion in 2100, due to increased reproductive rates in Africa.
All people strive to better their lives. They want to eat better, provide better for their families and children, have decent housing, and if they can afford it, drive a car.
Cheap energy has in the past been a key element of prosperity. It's certainly a key element in keeping food inexpensive enough to feed many of the world's truly poor. As the world population grows and more people endeavor to prosper, how is it that we are going to get world average CO2 emissions down to less than three metric tons per person per year?
Even those enlightened, as presumably most climbers are, seem to have no ability to conserve. For example, check out this thread over on Mountain Project where people are not consuming fossil fuels to feed their families but are instead consuming lots and lots of fossil fuels just for fun. http://mountainproject.com/v/how-far-will-you-drive-for-a-weekend-climbing-trip/107145621
In that thread climbers are wearing their willingness to drive great distances to climb, and emit lots of CO2 in the process, like a badge of honor. Each one doing their best to outdo the next.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 26, 2011 - 10:08am PT
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the weather now suggests global cooling!
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