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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:09pm PT
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lol... what a punt
[edit an hour later] Hilarious back edit, there, Matt. Typical tactics to add five discussion points long AFTER your original punt post and my post calling it a punt. Oh well, even with the five new points, nothing there of substance anyway.
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:13pm PT
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It seems to me in all these bolting debates there are two sides:
1. We want to preserve the adventure aspect of the sport, as well as the rock itself and respect the true nature of these routes by not altering them.
Or
2. Everyone should have a right to experience these routes without having to put their ass on the line.
As I see it there's an easy solution. Or at least, a viable solution. Leave the route itself unaltered. If you want the experience of the route without the danger. Drop 600 feet of static line down and toprope the damn thing. There. You have got what you wanted; you got to do the route, and the hardmen who want to do it ground up can do it ground up. Afterwards the hardmen and the topropers congregate at the campfire, drink beer, and exhange stories, and eveyone is friends forever.
Next week I will dispense of the Arab-Israeli conflict with a similar brilliant solution. Thank you.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:24pm PT
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Matt, since you are the one having the most to say about the route in this thread, I would point you to your own advice. And, btw, you are the one not affecting perceptions about the route. That has already been done by those who have been on it. We're content about the outcome. Apparently you are not. Just follow your own advice about smack-talking routes you have not been on, and we will all find your ongoing silence to be golden.
Thank you in advance.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 21, 2008 - 09:53pm PT
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After three weeks, this thread is still goin' strong. Although there's now more chaff...
Long Ago, very thoughtful posts. Although it will be a sad day when Yosemite
climbing is degraded into something that councils needed to vote upon.
I also think it would be shameful if lesser climbers than the Growing Up
team used Growing Up as an excuse to support their shady FA tactics.
{Yes, I'm aware of the subjective points of view this entails.}
From my armchair, Growing Up appears to be one route in a thousand.
Still, I do not see it as an endorsement for rap bolting. I just
hope that others who view this route see the same.
Things are not always Black or White.
~~~
Sean, BIG energy goin' your way. Get better soon Bro.
:- Kelly
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 21, 2008 - 11:37pm PT
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Since we're on the way to post 2000, a few short remarks.
1. A lot of people are thread drunk and post-holing so, if you want folks to read and comprehend your posts at this point, it's a good strategy to keep em short, concise or at least put a lot of paragraph spaces in.
2. While the WOS debacle may be worth talking about in light of these issues, I encourage you guys to keep it simple and on the topic and don't Lois it up by making it about personalities.
3. When you start making a list, why stop when you've run out of things to say.
I respect all the folks posting here. If we dig deep enough, each individual here disagrees with every other individual here about some point of climbing ethics, style, religion or politics. We seem to have discovered this doesn't prevent us from otherwise liking or at least tolerating each other and that's progress.
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 22, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Edit - Oops! I called out the wrong Aaron (see jghedge's post below). I apologize to the real Aaron for doing so. My bad.
Bruce
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Apr 22, 2008 - 01:43am PT
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I'm trying to figure out how big powerful binoculars from a helicopter or glacier point would be any different than rapping down and checking out the best line to finish the route from. Or binoculars from the base of the Dome.
I am glad that there weren't dead-end bolt ladder 'fingers' placed on lead as they figured out the best line to the top.
Even if they finished the line at the top of their ground-up lead, someone eventually would have connected it to the top, right?
If the top gets chopped, can someone (maybe the chopper) re-lead from the remaining 'top of the climb', using possibly more bolts and finish the route in fine style using the path they found when it was chopped, from the topo, or ultimately, from the original rap? Or is that line ethically out of bounds for any future ascent. And if it isn't, why doesn't Sean just go up there, add a few bolts on lead to his original bolt line he dropped in there for the top.
I guess I'm trying to figure out if the line is considered ruined now that they looked at it from above on a rope instead of from another vantage point with binoculars. JB doesn't give them FA credit, but from my understanding of his reasoning, no one will ever get that credit for that line now.
I think it would have made everyone happier if they had used the rap line to scope out the line, then approached from the bottom and done it all on lead, right? Or is rapping to scope out the route so much different than using binoculars and should be shunned?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 22, 2008 - 08:36am PT
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if someone told you that they drilled a bolt ladder on rappel just how f***in lame would you think that was anyway?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Apr 22, 2008 - 11:52am PT
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"don't Lois it up "
LOL! Nice!
Do you think she does forum searches for her name when she logs in? Something like this might draw her out. I'd rather fight a Yetti, personally.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 22, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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A lot of the difficulties labored over here appear the moment one decides to change the rock. Suppose you do not decide to do this. Then the rock either provides you the weaknesses you need to climb it or it does not. If it does not then by definition the problem is that you are not good enough. Finding one's limit is after all why we climb. In either case the resource is left unchanged for others, still with only its natural weaknesses formed more than 100,000 years ago.
On the other hand if one wishes to change the experience available to others you might do it this way. Get a 2000' static line and top rope the whole face. With a top rope you can explore the whole area and piece together just the line you are seeking. Keep in mind you will still be criticized, and very rightly so, by the people who would have preferred a 5.13 climb instead of the 5.12 you created. But that is not a problem. Those other people can just go ahead and change the rock to suit themselves, just as you did.
No problem.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Just curious: how much does 2000' of 9mm static line weigh?
Humping that up to the summit would probably be harder than climbing the route!
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:35pm PT
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9 mm sounds pretty thick for a static line that is only supposed to handle about 200 pounds. I am thnking 2mm kevlar could probably do quite handily.
Handling it might want a winch though! :-)
Then there is that little problem...
How do they get the rope down there?!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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How would you solo-TR (knott to mention rapping) on anything much smaller than 9mm?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 02:41pm PT
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1800!
(sorry, couldn't resist)
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jstan
climber
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:04pm PT
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"Down there."
TIG, you are a smartass. Damn funny.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:45pm PT
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That was, a good one.
no prob, HK I've carried a 400' static rope, don't know the exact weight;PITA but manageable.
So you get five submen each with a coil of that size. These could be five different ropes, but more amusingly would be to use one rope ( a bit longer than 2k' , just to be safe) and put 400' coils on each buttbo- er partner, with rope between them. Details can be be gleaned from 'Mtneering, Freedom of the Hills' They can hike up the trail as if it were a giant glacier. The fun part would be going up the cables, 4th of july weekend would be the optimal date for this adventure. Then leave it up there for further shenanigans.
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James
climber
in between climbs
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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I ran into Frank last weekend in the Valley. He's solid-fired Autobahn and Dreamscape last week. Likes his slabs cold I guess. He's looking for partners for this thing. He's hanging around Camp 4.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 22, 2008 - 03:59pm PT
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Jaybro - too funny!
I also have a 400' static (great for siege solo TR-ing the East Wall at Lover's Leap,
bootying "stuck" gear mid-route, ect). While I like your idea for carrying the rope,
couldn't we just bribe one of the YOSAR guys to drop it off during a helo-exercise?
I mean, as long as they happen to be going up there anyway...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 22, 2008 - 04:01pm PT
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Well, in that case, it would be hard to call it Trad-top rope rehersal, pre-inspection.
BTW, that must have been pretty wild having one rope down the whole Leap, good times!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 22, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
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Preplaced trad toprope preinspection
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!