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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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This is sorta pathetic but I'm usually more scared sport climbing than soloing.
I don't fall soloing and do fall sport climbing.
And soloing has made me fear falling.
So it's funny when guys climb with me and say "I climb 5.12 sport and lead 5.7 trad" Oh well. We live in different worlds
Peace
karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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-"And why can't both be seen as positives for the climbing community?"
...That's the crux of the whole dustup Bob.
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Note: I didn't use "quickies" on the "Phantom" just for the record. I used RP's. We didn't have cams that small yet.
Phantom is 13b??????
I thought it's 12d X/R....
 jb
Edit: Crossroads is a rap job. Phantom was on sight, no falls, ground up.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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sorry, Donny Reid has Phantom 5.13a R (page 74 in my edition)...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I feel your pain Karl.
There's a whole sidebar, a bit of thread drift, actually a lot... to explain that phenomena.
But real quick:
Wunsch wrote very eloquently in a piece which you can read in CLIMB!, about the mental gyrations which he felt when working on some of those roof routes in Eldorado. It's a kinesthetic oriented fear; it's about putting your body in wild positions, where falling is a near certainty.
Traditional climbing, soloing, for those who are in the zone, tends to engender a feeling of certainty of NOT falling. You target and calculate for that and achieve it and that's what's special about it; not as a comparison to the other, but in its own right.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Ed wrote
"OK, I've never been on these, nor will I likely ever do anything but walk underneath and look up, but what's the prevailing opinion about these two routes at Reed's:
Crossroads 5.13a * - 1990 Ron Kauk
Phantom 5.13b - 1986 John Bachar
it would seem these two climbs might provide an example raised in Ron's OP question"
that's a good question but 5.13 short granite face routes don't get done much so I don't think too many folks besides Bachar and Kauk have been thinking of these routes.
Most likely, anybody interested in climbing them would have sport climbed enough to not care
peace
karl
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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John,
I figured you would correct me on the "quickie" bit.
What I do remember, is that you got a few from Dimitri when you were working (looking at?) on that route and others at the time -and were stoked that they might fit into the mix.
(Russ busts me on those inconsistencies of reportage all the time, haha)
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I used to test quickies for Don Best who was making many new types of designs....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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...and Dimitri repped them.
You snagged a few from him when we were in Foresta. Those details are unimportant. But pushing routes without bolts WAS important.
Nevertheless, those routes, Crossroads more so (obviously), had a controversial relationship.
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WBraun
climber
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Me n Cashner saw that Phantom.
Then we looked at each other and said: "Nope, not us".
"Better get bachar" "Only superman can climb this thing".
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Are you serious Tolman? Lets get this straight.
"The only time I've had a climb ruined was by a group of trad climbers."
Of course these trad climbers could magically be distinguished from yourself(as you were both on a trad route) even though...
"the majority of climbers were just climbers, of various abilities, or lack thereof."
In fact, what makes them evil trad climbers is not obvious here. But anyways, you were on a 'trad' route and you had your 'trad' experience on said 'trad route' ruined by some 'trad' climbers. So, what are you complaining about?
Oh, right. You are complaining because YOU...
"ended up making a late start"...
On one of the most popular routes in Tuolumne and YOU...
"didn't have a flashlight with us, So we bailed and went craggin"
And by the way, You have never had your 'sport' experience ruined, becuase there is never anyone frickin' climbing above you on a sport route, duh! You weren't on the same climb as the
"folks [who] were falling their way up a route bolt by bolt"...
And you never needed a flashlight to bail off a sport route because you never really go anywhere. Of course, climbing some BS sport route next to the folks falling their way upwards is a way better experience than climbing the Regular Route On Fairview, right?
Good point Tolman. God I hope you were joking.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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So sport climbing isn't dangerous??
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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As an aside - John and anyone else, do any of you know where Don Best might be these days? I believe Stephane Penequinn of the Nut Museum was trying to locate him (you can send me an email).
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Bob-
If sport climbing has been redefined to mean whitewhater rafting, sign me up. Otherwise, sport climbing has inherently nothing to do with crossing rivers.
-Paul
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Paul...you need to loosen up a little and come down off your little trad-high-horse.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Although I find all these discussions interesting, important even,
I must say, I used to laugh a lot more here on Supertopo.
(I know, I know this isn't a laughing matter for most of us here)
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Damn, that water looks cold Bob.
You know about the shrinkage, right?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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T-Paul - Keep riding that horse brother! heh heh...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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So JB,
Can you comment more on the Phantom and Crossroads?
I recall that Ron doing Crossroads, that that event took place at the height, or right in the middle of the rap bolting controversy in Yosemite. For me it was emblematic of the controversy, but I don't remember any big dustup over that route.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here John, or fill in the blanks: but it seemed like he more or less just got away with that one, (I remember Ron talking about his route name; he was making a statement with it, but I don't remember your input on the matter) so how that really went down, that does inform the discussion, historically speaking, of side-by-side styles.
I never even looked at these routes, but doesn't Crossroads cross right over the Phantom?
That's what I remember.
It may as well have been called "Crossing Swords".
Roy
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Tar - Yeah it caused a few ground up folks to get pissed off. Crossroads did get chopped and replaced. Kauk was unhappy about that. I thought it was a bad precedent at the time. That is also when I wrote that "Compromise" piece that was posted by Deucy in the SFHD thread. Kauk didn't want any part of that and the rap bolting began.
Now people rap bolt 2000 foot faces....
Gotta go free soloing for now....see ya' later (I hope).
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