What ever happened to "ground up"?

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 161 - 180 of total 363 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

immanti

climber

Nov 23, 2006 - 10:39pm PT

fracture, you say "climbing is not special", it's "just a game".

Uh, maybe some climbing styles are just a game.
But there is a whole different "game" out there.

Climbing changes you, it is no sport, no game, no hobby. It changes who you are like no other discipline, not even martial arts go as far.

For those who only monkey around in a gym, it might seem like just a game, and that would be correct, because THAT IS a game.

But to go out and put yourself in an unpredictable situation that tests your abilities and mental temper to the limit AND walk away because your mind held steady and your body did the work is sublime, way, way beyond a sport or game. Then again, I'm pretty sure that's not what you're doing.

I'll leave you with a quote from the foreword to one of my favorite climbing books, Gary Arce's "Defying Gravity" and which Mr. Royal Robbins credited originally to James Ullman. I think it comes close to capturing the jist of why people choose adventure climbing (with all it implies):

"For it is the ultimate wisdom of the mountains that a man is never more a man than when he is striving for what is beyond his grasp, and that there is no conquest worth the winning save that over his own weakness and ignorance and fear."

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 24, 2006 - 12:30am PT

Folks bolt their first ascents for a number of different reasons

1. It's their art. They build the route they want.

2. They don't have the money for a lot of bolts, or they do.

3. They want to climb the route fast, or in a day, rather than take the time to make a route for other climbers.

4. They are climbing way below their ability or at their max.

In any case, the whole "respect the first ascent party's intentions and ask permission" is half-way reasonable now because so many first ascenders are still around. We'll all doomed though and nobody really knows what your intentions are. Folks are being raised in Gyms and Sport climbing and god knows if they'll respect anything 60 years from now.

I came up with an idea awhile back for first ascenders to catalog their opinions on ethics and what went into their first ascents so the next generation would have a reference and a means of education. We all climb for different reasons.

Nothing became of it but if anybody wants to run with it, have at it.

You can read the discussion about it here

http://tinyurl.com/ygeymz

and a supertopo link here

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20192&msg=20294

which turned into this

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=20494&msg=20554

Thanks to rockclimbing.com new site design, the links within the first link don't work anymore.

Peace

Karl

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 24, 2006 - 02:07am PT

Thanks. I really think the best solution is to create a framework for a self-organizing system. If we could bug Rockclimbing.com a bit more to implement it, then the first ascenders could input their own info and folks like Kenny wouldn't have to give up all thier free time. Kinda like a Wikipedia for first ascents.

Of course, some folks like big projects. Folks who like history and hob-nobbing with the pioneers might really dig it.

Peace

Karl

jstan

climber

Nov 24, 2006 - 09:13am PT

What Ken is doing is far far more important to us than assembling route histories. Indeed “routes”, as we call them, are becoming less important with each passing day. Climbing areas now have thousands of “routes” with many guides giving data only on “selected routes”. As they get more closely packed together we will end up doing random portions of three or more “routes” and caring nothing about the history of any of them. We have six billion people now and in just fifty years we will have nine billion. Wake up guys. Whymper is dead and gone.

The past is no guide to the future. We are going through a phase change.

fracture

Sport climber

Austin, TX

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:45am PT

Climbing changes you, it is no sport, no game, no hobby. It changes who you are like no other discipline, not even martial arts go as far.

You're funny.

fracture

Sport climber

Austin, TX

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:57am PT

Folks are being raised in Gyms and Sport climbing and god knows if they'll respect anything 60 years from now.

I expect that they won't know or care much about climbing's history. This is already happening. Many of the young climbers I know (including kids climbing harder than most of you old folks ever did or ever will) don't realize that hangdogging or rap-bolting were ever controversial, and they honestly don't really care.

And I don't particularly blame them. The history of this sport is pretty entertaining (pure comedy), but it's a lot more fun to go climb a rock.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 24, 2006 - 11:38am PT

I think the "generation gap" in general is smaller than it was when I was a kid. There is a helping of respect for the old school, climbing or not.

Still, it's not going to be blind obediance and nothing can take place without a communication medium from the past to future. Whoever builds the framework for the pioneers and first ascenders to pass down their thoughts, opinions and history will be doing climbing a big service and doing something fairly unique in the history of sports. Sorry I'm too lazy.

Of course, many of the Supertopo postings and trip reports serve some of those functions but something that could eventually cover any route, area, or part of the world would be ideal

peace

Karl

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Nov 24, 2006 - 09:14pm PT

Hey Locker....I respect YOU! Face it, man, we are old and in the way. The kids are right, there is no value to anything that's been done before, and they could climb circles around Bachar because they've found a better way of doing it. A gym is all it takes to be good, along with grid-bolted overhanging jug hauls. Placing pro or running it out if there is no pro is for people who just don't get the superiority of pure gymnastic movement. Look at the idiot below, Malcolm Daly, wearing stupid lycra tights as he sets about creating a vacuum on the cliff (first ascent of New Music, 1986) How dumb can you get? Hell, it's all just a stupid game, anyway...means absolutely nothing...screw you if you think it does...you're just stupid like all the other stupid old stupid idiot so-called climbers who put up dangerous routes only for stupid egotistical self-glorification. You're just stupid!

-HyperCoolNewAgeJelloKnowItAll, or simply: FracturedJello

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:12pm PT

Jeff...

Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:23pm PT

Hi Bob-

Haven't you already noticed, the more things change, the more they stay the same?

As you've pointed out, we've heard all the opinions a thousand times before. I had hoped we had moved on to a place of better balance, where people climb in their own styles and respect or at least don't mess with the style of others, making for an overall healthier and vital scene.

Cheers,
Jeff

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:27pm PT

I think the better ones (of this generation, Tommy Caldwell...etc) do have respect.

Most people who ascend to a higher level...know who shoulders they are standing on.

Hope all is well, Later, Bob

Jello

Social climber

No Ut

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:30pm PT

Bob- BINGO!

WBraun

climber

Nov 24, 2006 - 10:48pm PT

See .....

I told you you care, Bob D. And I wasn't being negative Bob. I ment it in a positive way.

Just so you know ........

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Nov 24, 2006 - 11:12pm PT

I think you have to be a complete idiot to walk pass " Perilous Journey" and not have respect for what Dave Breashears did when he climbed that route.

Mimi

climber

Nov 24, 2006 - 11:40pm PT

So Bob, does this mean that when it comes to this route, you're personally ready to chop one for Dave if a futuristic utility bolt shows up?

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Nov 24, 2006 - 11:45pm PT

Mimi...there would be a line of climbers willing to do it.

How that's for sticking my neck out.

LOL

Mimi

climber

Nov 24, 2006 - 11:50pm PT

Ha! There's hope!

The question then becomes, why some and not others? I know Dave's kinda cute and I'd chop one for him too, but the sad lonely little 5.7 in the City of Rocks cries out, "Ain't I a free climb?" It needs your support too.

bob d'antonio

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Nov 24, 2006 - 11:53pm PT

Mimi wrote: The question then becomes, why some and not others?

Some things are worth going to war for...other are not.

Mimi wrote: Ha! There's hope!

As long as you are taking in air...there is hope!