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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 22, 2006 - 06:31pm PT
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Euroford writes: "a 'clean' climb isn't really a clean climb when you have to rely on hammered fixed gear." If that really is the end of the matter, then must we conclude that SG's thread-starting rant is baseless? Say it isn't so!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 22, 2006 - 07:01pm PT
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Ben wrote:
> Always bring a hammer on aid climbs, clean or not. A hammer and a cleaning tool may be the only way to remove nuts once they are weighted.
You can bring a small hammer for this purpose. We brought a hammer for removing nuts the first time I did the Nose (1985), but not on later trips up it. There are also nut tools which have a hammer head on one end, but then what do you hammer on? A second nut tool? Personally, I find using a #4 Friend or other large cam is heavy enough to use to tap on the nut tool, when using it to tap under a nut that I can't rip out by hand.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 22, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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Euroford wrote:
> we've been over that before. a 'clean' climb isn't really a clean climb when you have to rely on hammered fixed gear. IMO, its a nailing line that just so happens to be fixed when you happen to be on it.
This is semantics to some extent - you can call it whatever you want to. Your method of ascent is clean, i.e. you are not doing any hammering during it. It is rare for an aid climb to have no fixed gear whatsoever (including bolts at belays). So your use of "clean" here is nonstandard. Maybe "clean with no fixed gear" is a way to describe those rare aid walls.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 22, 2006 - 07:18pm PT
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"then must we conclude that SG's thread-starting rant is baseless?"
I thought we had determined this already, as well as that he is just being a bitter, used-to-be badass about the fact that someone is busting out these climbs in hours, rather than the days, to weeks it takes everyone else.
If it were really about the "ethic", at all, it would have started as such. If there had been any research done about Ammon or the topic, or even just some reading to become acquainted with the surroundings here, which doesn't seem to be a strong suit when judging by other published works, the topic would never have come about, as the attack on Ammon was so 180 degrees from reality, and the "ethics" "debate" would have been seen for the reality that it will never be settled to any one side or another so to continue on with all the rhetoric and chest beating is pointless. However, this started as a bitter, baseless assault on someone with skills that are leaps beyond the rest of us, all pitifully disguised as some attempt to debate clean climbing. Sad.
The incredibly ironic thing is that when it comes down to it, everyone really feels the same in that they try to do the route as cleanly as possible, with as little impact as possible and in the best style they can. There are, of course, the exceptions to the rule, as always, but this is the general mentality of most. Now if only everyone had exactly the same skill level... Oh, but I guess there's supposed to be at least two sets of skill levels, eh? "Regular" and "Holier Than Thou", perhaps?
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sep 22, 2006 - 11:05pm PT
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Actually Nef, all that was determined is that we line up behind our friends and base our opinions upon the question of who we like. I don't like the tone of your blatantly aggressive post.
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TradIsGood
Hammer wielding climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sep 22, 2006 - 11:07pm PT
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If I had a hammer, ...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 23, 2006 - 02:19am PT
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And away we go. Please listen up Nef. My routes sit as testimony to my committment, ability, and style; both aid and free climbing. The game of clean aid climbing has seen some outstanding accomplishments but still no C4+ or C5.
Before being chased to the ground by 110-degree August heat while putting up the Jolly Roger, I did the first ever C4 pitch on an El Cap route. Charles had become severely dehydrated and we were definitely going down. I had time to put together a real thriller complete with tiny RPs, crack-em-ups, hooks, and Leeper camhooks. All with the Mammoth Terraces below. When the topo hit circulation, I noticed that my C4 pitch rating had become Class 4. That amazing pitch could still be there proudly to challenge supermen like you except that a party came along and began to pound a little and so with the next party.......
To quote John Long concerning The Giraffe at Gran Trono, "You bust your ass to put up a really good route and the first party that comes along f*#ks it up."
The beauty of the rock and the challenge left unblemished for the future are reasons enough to respect other climbers and yourself and climb clean as can be. Every placement, every time. Try first, use force as a last resort and sparingly. If some piece of garbage pulls out, do your best with what's left. Until you commit to truly do your best, it is all hairsplitting and sidewinding around the central issue. Are you properly prepared to meet the risks and challenge facing you without diminishing the experience of the next party? The presence or absence of one sort of fixed gear or another or a history of hammer use contributing to the condition of the cracks as you encounter them does not change your basic ethical responsibility. "Do what you want, do what you will, just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill." Frank Zappa.
If you feel that you are so very modern and have transcended the need to consider the consequences of impact and the use of force,(in the name of speed or not) just admit that you either are unclear about your priorities or unwilling to summon the necessary resources to meet your own goals. If you came across my C4 pitch, what would you do? It depends entirely on your level of preparation and competance at the time. It also depends on pride and how badly you want up. To pound is to alter. To alter is to diminish. To diminish thoughtlessly in the absence of clear purpose is tragic and needless behavior.
I did The Shield back in 1978 and used very few hammered placements on my leads. On wired hexes, stoppers and RPs, I lead the opening arch with only one pin. Above, the cracks were a clean knife stroke with nothing to hit below. The perfect place to be bold and have some fun with the tiny wires. Piton use clears off the very irregularities that micronutting requires and can diminish the clean climbing potential and challenge. Until you master testing technique and realize how little it takes to hold your weight, this level of impact doesn't have much meaning. To be clear here, I am not refering to so called "agressive" bounce testing which is not appropriate for true bodyweight placements. Everytime a hammer is used, think first. The peg board mindset has lead to so much damage and piton scarring that we all need to be aware of collapsing into that dark little hole by failing to consider and explore the alternatives first. Hand placed pins and cam hooks work exceptionally well and do nothing but up the adventure factor. Learn to trust your judgement and technique and step into the bodyweight game. Before heading up on The Jolly Roger, John Yablonski once gave me what he thought to be sensible advice by saying, "Don't stand on anything shitty way out, man." What is the point, I asked.
Don't be so sure that the past holds nothing of value for you.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 23, 2006 - 04:15am PT
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Off White - Exactly. You're just agreeing with my point. Thanks. Your first statement contradicts your latter as you did, exactly, agree with my post. All of this crap is about people "lining up behind their friends".
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 23, 2006 - 04:24am PT
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Steve -- "To pound is to alter. To alter is to diminish. To diminish thoughtlessly in the absence of clear purpose is tragic and needless behavior."
Each route on El Cap starts by erring from this "ethic" (read style, as ethics are based on core beliefs and don't change to suit the circumstance and "need") and defiling the rock. All for someone's personal gain. This is what happens everytime someone goes up a route.
My whole point, is that most people pracice, within their abilities, exactly the care and concern that you are talking about. They do the best they can with the least amount of effect to the rock/environment. To say you or anyone else has any more right to do so is simply arrogant and what people view as an elitist attitude. Sure, if an C3 climber is nailing the f*#k out of an A4 route simply to beat it into submission to say that he "made it to the top, well, anyone will have a problme with that. But when you're essentially saying that only a handfull of climbers can climb a handfull of routes on El Cap, people are going to bitch. Especially when they're not doing anything differently then those before them, including the FA.
I think your routes and achievements are bitchin', Steve. Seriously. Nice lines, bold ascents and balls to do them. But seriosuly, you altered as much, if not more than plenty of the people admiring your work by repeating your routes. You did this for you, not for anyone else, certainly not for El Cap or to protect her. For your personal goal. They're simply doing the same and doing it in the best style they can and most, if for nothing else than fear, are doing it within reasonable limts and not beating the route into submission.
Regardless, it's not your "ethic" or the ensuing rants that are being challenged or that people have an issue with, it's the way it was gone about. Again, if that was you had to say, that's what you would have said, rather than trying to single out probably the most talented aid climber here for a single placement on a route. In the end, that only hurt your point rather than helped to prove it. And, again, to follow this ethic to it's extreme, routes like Dihedral Wall, The Nose, Zodiac, etc... They're off limits to anyone not capable of freeing them with the minimal amounts of gear and palcements that hae gone before.... Most people who are still activley climbing and have yet to reach their peaks and limits aren't going to buy into this.
And, not really trying to sound aggressive or anything, but this is a sounding board for all and I call it the way I see it and share my opinion jsut as the way this thread started. Fact is, I'd gladly share a rope and good times with pretty much anyone here and a beer and laughs afterwards. I'll be in the ditch 6:30 AM tomorrow if anyone wants to partake.
Cheers!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 24, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
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SG writes: "My routes sit as testimony to my committment, ability, and style; both aid and free climbing."
DUDE! You're just too sexy for yourself!
SG writes: "The beauty of the rock and the challenge left unblemished for the future are reasons enough to respect other climbers and yourself and climb clean as can be."
Uhhh... no. What you mean to say is this: "The beauty of my awesomeness and my overarching desire that future parties will experience it unblemished, so that with each placement they will be thinking, 'God! Steve's routes really do sit as testimony to his awesomeness!' is what 'respecting other climbers' is all about."
Perhaps, you might actually learn something from the Bird, who told me, "I don't know nor care what's up on the Sea now. Whatever it is, it isn't the route I climbed, and I don't give a damn about it now."
See, Steve, when you're truly great rather than just a wannabe, you actually manage to transcend setting yourself up as an exemplar of how things should be done. When you're truly great, people WANT to emulate you without you having to constantly remind them of how pitiful they are compared to you.
SG writes: "Are you properly prepared to meet the risks and challenge facing you without diminishing the experience of the next party?"
Yup, Sergeant! All present and accounted for! With my hammer and drill in hand I'm FULLY prepared to CREATE rather than diminish an experience for the next party that they could not have had without somebody like me being willing to 'meet the risks and challenge' to put up a route that COULD NOT possibly go clean and never would have nor will. Oooo RAH!
Oh, but I forget. Always I forget. ONLY the follow-the-cracks, climb-by-the-numbers routes put up by the likes of ego-heaving, chest-beating, tree-pissing, chicken-bolting, libelous blow-hards who have grandmas that can outclimb them are really worthy of the respect of future parties. Hammering, drilling, piton-placing riff raff should really spare future generations by employing one last long-dong placement... driven through their skulls, spiking them to the ground once and for all. Ooooooooo RAH!
(Oops. I guess that last paragraph will prolly preclude me from having a friendly beer with you any time soon.)
Why don't you get off your high horse and come clean (ha ha ha, that was a good one; I tickle myself) with the less savory facts of some of your own ethical failings? You've never had any??? Well, then get up there and do WoS clean. For someone as awesome as yourself, you should be able to just flash the thing in a day or two. Let us know how your clean attempt turns out, or if you end up "diminishing the experience" for future parties.
What's that you say? Ehh? "WoS is a trash route not worthy of your time?" Is that what I heard?
How convenient for you. One of the routes that could actually TEST your inane, elitist, ego-pumping theory, so OF COURSE it's trash.
Dang! You're JUST too sexy for yourself!
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 24, 2006 - 02:13pm PT
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You had camhooks on the FA of Jolly Roger?
More than a decade before the rest of us?
What little trinkets do you have now that the rest of us won't see until 2016?
Secret weapons are uber-cool.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 24, 2006 - 02:47pm PT
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Cam hooks have been around for a quarter century.
Wish you guys could understand the difference between ethics and style. When you do something that affects others then it is a question of ethics, but style affects nobody but the actor.
I don't give a rat's azz if somebody does those routes free or not, but when you beat on something you change it and saying "but so and so did it first" doesn't justify YOUR continuing the degradation.
Its not elitism to suggest that once a route goes clean people shouldn't beat on it any more. Its merely good manners.
And for chrisakes get over the issue of one placement on one climb
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 24, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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I find that a little surprising.
I am a total gear fiend, and I never saw or heard of them before the mid 90's. And I was in the ditch at the time, so it isn't like I was in some backwater burg.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 24, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
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WOS chaps: Questions still hang in the air. Do you consider yourselves as great or visionary wall climbers with respect to WOS and WOC; your two contributions to El Cap history?
What is it about these climbs, and the style in which they were done, that you would recommend to others?
Your accounts of WOS never mention any feature or otherwise redeeming or pleasurable aspect to what seems like an otherwise hellish and confusing experience. When you sat on the ground with your half-ton of gear, gazing upward, what were your goals with respect to the well established history and precedent upon that grand stage?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 24, 2006 - 03:41pm PT
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Horse's mouth, Elcapfool, Ed Leeper showed them to me in his workshop.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 24, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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Of course I believe you, I just wish they had made it to market sooner, as I had great fun with them when they did.
They were my first choice for a placement. So much so that a regular lived on the ends of both daisies. I worked a few miracles with them where absolutely nothing (maybe a #8 copperhead?) would have worked.
Mimi, your post reminds me of Churchill's "never surrender" speech. Keep the faith!
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 24, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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We shall defend our crag whatever the cost may be.
Like Ron wrote: There's plenty of ammo left, keep on blazing!
The regulars and conscripts doing the deli hang have already circled the overturned tables in an attempt to thwart the incoming onslaught. Their only thought being: When will the cavalry arrive with the much needed burnt weenie sandwiches? They can't hold out much longer on Old E and bullshat alone.
Do you think Steve's House of Smoke delivers?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Sep 24, 2006 - 04:54pm PT
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We will fight them in the talus, in the meadow, and on the internet.
And yes, I am BLASTING Iron Maiden's Aces High as I write this.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 24, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
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Never have so many owed so much rock to so few.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 24, 2006 - 07:29pm PT
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Dear Bwana-Dick,
In contrast to Bridwell, whose boldness and accomplishments are well known, and who had actually climbed a Grade VI, you guys show up with no experience to speak of, at the base of a route that is generally low angle, hiding nothing from the eye with no less than:
200 liters (53 US gallons) water
250 lbs food
180 biners
210 pitons
500 copperheads
An estimated total of 1,070 lbs. To quote Mark, "The weight was ominous...To our dismay, we couldn't stuff it into our SEVEN 130-lb haul bags." Please explain.
Can it really be true that your sole preparation before taking on a NEW ROUTE on El Cap, consisted of your unparalleled TEN-DAY (yes, 10) ring-of-fire solo ascent of the South Face of the Washington Column? That's 10 pitches folks. Please explain.
Can any wall climber in ST land wrap their brain around that? LOL! The only thing I find more strange, is that your partner was even less prepared than your sorry ass.
Let's keep it simple, and focused for a change on facts.
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