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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Jesus Chist just take aid ratings from a book and act like an expert why don't ya!?!??!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Werner, perhaps you missed my point.
Those people who say it is a rape job would carry much more weight if they had climbed the route. Raping seems to be an up close and personal act better identified by the rapist and rapee or someone in close observation that has surveyed the damage...
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah, I don't see any rape.
Seems like weird thing to say to me, but what do I know.
I remember people dreaming to climb the thing free (the slab).
Man, looks impossible to me. They could barely hook it.
I like to climb stuff I can see. Sounds like you need a microscope to find your way around up there. Plus I don't need nor want any road rash from falls. There are so many good routes in Yosemite. Why would someone want to mess around on this thing and risk fuking yourself up beats me. You all can have it.
It's a wonderful thing to look at though.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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yes, even if I were a non-climber there is something in me that appreciates placing the palm of my hand on the rock of el cap and staring at it.
It seems to be the humanity of us all that creates most of the problems. Sounds like that slab is alright after all of these years...
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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I think the breath wasted on this topic here must equal the entire communication that M and R exchanged in 39 days. I know this, because I am an idiot savant. Or an idiot who is smarter than a calculator. Or maybe just an idiot.
I climbed on a shitted on rack quite a bit. My buddy soloed Cosmos back around 1980 and had an attack of bad cream cheese hit him near the end of the pitch. He had to fire hose everything, ropes, pigs, all the hardware below him. A good rinse in the Merced and the hardware was fine. The ropes had these long brown stains, and I wouldn't use them. He used my ropes or used his on unsuspecting partners.
So, to surmise this bitter, lengthy, tome, I will sum up...
1) Route going up. Everyone thought it was some nobodys drilling up the blankest part of El Cap. Pissed off a lot of people. People are now saying it is way hard.
2) First two pitches chopped and gear sh#t on in a (night time?)raid. I was in the valley but not for the raid. I heard about it in the morning. I never saw slander in the shitters about WOS, but there was this period where the stalls all read, "Topper is real, Dino too." Sometimes accompanied by a crude dinosaur sketch.
3) Route repaired and sent in a long period for 13 pitches or so of new climbing(using the Reid guide).
Hasn't been repeated. FA boys evidently want some respect. Bad blood still runs deep from the old timer valley locals.
I have an opinion, but I'll keep it to myself. No matter which way I go, I'll just be tossing bombs at someone.
I vote that we boycott this entire discussion, and leave it to the righteous to fight it out over email. I can't imagine something that hasn't been said by now. Most of it over and over and over.
I vote on a best bong thread, or maybe a soloing on acid thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"um, ^^that^^ guy got up 3 pitches w/ no falls, did he just get lucky and find all their doctored placements? did he have better hooks?"
I believe ^^that^^ guy said:
"and I clearly credit the Petzl crochet hooks I got in france for making it that far. And yes I threw up."
Now, how would you interpret those statements? I'd tend to take him at his word that he likely had better hooks. I'd also tend to think if he threw up then it was likely a pretty damn stout endeavor for anyone.
Endless, tedious slab hooking wouldn't do anything for me, but nothing I've heard yet convinces me these guys didn't put up a stellar slab aid route. And just because slabs don't happen to ring my bell I'm not about to call it a piece of sh#t. But hey, that's just me.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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I apologize if I missed this request earlier in this gihugic thread. Just one question to clarify this whole thing in terms of what the second ascent party should hope to find on the route in its entirety. In your original article, WOS: Living in the Sky (Climbing, 1983) you reported that the route required 145 drilled placements including 75 rivets and 39 anchor bolts.
If you consider every hook placement touched by a drill, does this whole count still hold up or exactly where are things at this point?
I'm hearing 145 +10, going twice!
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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i take it all back
forget i said anything-
i'd delete it all, but that would piss someone off too-
i now agree w/ werner, the valley's resident sage and my defacto spiritual mentor- i have no interest whatsoever in that slab and whomever wants to climb it can have it, and in any style they see fit, who f*#king cares anyway?
i recognize that this is not my fight- i think i was drawn in by all these people who weren't there, chiming in and offering these guys redemption or something, but redemption from anyone who wasn't climbing in the 80s will be hollow enough w/out my opinion, so i'll just try to keep my trap shut, for once.
richard and mark, if you can find out who crapped on your ropes, more power to you, that wasn't a very nice thing to do. best of luck w/ that effort. i can tell you this much, it wasn't me. i was in junior high.
further, if you can get lois' jury or any other group to represent the "community" and offer you any sort of closure (i have had a woman or two ask me for that, so it may be a definable human need on some level? who knows), again, best of luck w/ that. it's not my gig, and i officially do not have an opinion on PoS, oops, i mean WoS!!
(come on now, that's a JOKE! =)
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nef,
I didn't say the "anchors would rip", that was somebody else.
Yes the route is ridiculously hard, but still only A4+, because of the rivets(even though they are intentionally bad).
Mighty bold of you to be calling me a liar, since I live 3500 miles away now. So you've heard from many sources? How many? Are you aware Pete and I have history of bad blood? (Muir wall)
Not trying to restart that war(please God, NOOOO), but what I saw up there didn't exactly make me think Pete was a bad ass, and I specifically remember his concern that I was running it out too far.
I've got two witnesses on that so, bring on your evidence.
I did not do the "bogus" start, so I can't comment on that.
I also can't say what has transpired in the last 5 years.
Also that is definately not the first time I mentioned the hammering, although I think I used different words. But I am sure I mentioned the route had been damaged, several times.
I wish I still had those Petzl hooks, so I could send them to you with detailed instructions where to put them, but all my gear was stolen in 2004. They were VERY agressive, sharp and pointy, with only about a 1/4" radius. I didn't have to do any modifications, the hooks did it for me.
So, since you've jugged the first two pitches (as if that makes you badass?) wouldn't you say that would be the best hook for that you have ever seen?
I bailed because I was not having fun. I thought someone had bashed the route, and it was way harder than the FA. That may or may not be the case. Anyway, Kevin made it farther than me, why don't you ask him?
It was actually a friendly gesture I made to Pete, telling him to stay off Wos. I know how he climbs, and the details of his deal (that he comes on his vacations). If I was still pissed at him I would have said "you gotta do it , it's rad!" But I didn't did I. I said he should do Space.
And since you put me in a defensive posture, There is no F'ing way there is only 150 hook moves on the slab. Do the math, if it is 1800', then there must be between 450-600 placements.
Also, It might be called "The Great Slab", but it is only a few degrees less than Vertical. I think many people don't realize that with all this "slab" talk thrown around.
I find it both amusing and infuriating that with no first hand knowledge, you are calling me a liar. That is so ironic. I've got WoS syndrome. It seems anyone who touches that route has their integrity called into question by the unseen hoard.
Who in their right mind would have ever thought someone would be called a Liar for saying they bailed on a route?
My ropes were fixed for three days, and I spent "quality" time at the base with Chongo. Dozens of people went by headed up to LF or where ever. Bill Russell was aware of my attempt.
So Nefarius, name names, or STFU.
Edit-
After rereading your post, I see I forgot to adress the why didn't they see hammering. Gee, I don't know. Maybe because when I saw it it was fresh, and now six or so years later the wet winters out west have faded the scars? White stands out on gray. Light gray on medium gray is likely harder to see.
You're saying P2 was the crux? I felt less secure on the first pitch, probably the groundfall potential. And I don't remember these "Ledges" you're talking about. If you can't sit on it, it ain't much of a ledge.
I have been all over that stone, and to be honest, most of it blends together in my memory. There are highlights, to be sure, but for the most part it was all just a Gordian knot of nylon stuck against a granite wall, like the spagetti test.
With few exceptions, the most memorable spots were on ledges.
And as an additional caveat, the thing I am probably best known for is not exactly conducive to clear memories.
Second Edit-
And Pete didn't see the neon yellow paint on two of my Lost Arrows. "Oh, I thought those were fixed." (and then two pitches later "You didn't bring enough LA's!")
I don't believe I ever said WoS wasn't hard. My issues lie elsewhere.
-yet another edit,
Petzl seems not to make that hook anymore. Their current small "reglette" is at least twice the radius of the ones I had, and the sling is sewn totally differently. The ones I had were bartacked like a sport draw. Still searching, but no luck so far finding a pic. Once you see one, you'll know what I'm talking about.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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elcapfool-- I think, if you notice, and since, as you point out, I don't know you, I said/offered benefit of the doubt. I think I've read some of those things here, in these threads.
My question was in regards to the hammering. I took it from your descriptions that someone had ravaged the rock with a hammer, which would be noticeable, even six years later. Maybe I'm wrong. It is a watercourse, which could certainly affect that.
Too bad you *don't* have the hooks, I'd definitely like to see them. Sorry about the gear! That sucks. Do you have pics? Maybe a sketch you can do? It would be interesting to see something that someone thought worked well. I'd tend to think that a sharp hook might not be best, as it might tend to cause the *tiny* (you know, as you were there) flakes off the wall. But, who knows. The hooks I stood on were slightly flattened, and as I stated before, I didn't have the balls to try much more than a few placements a few feet above the ground. So, I think that would pretty much take care of, in any way, you somehow thinking I was implying I'm a badass. My aid experience is definitely below A5 or A4+.
Actually, now that I think about it, they may have been slightly pointed. I took pics, I'll have to go through my files.
Also, sorry, as I wasn't implying you said the anchor thing, dude. I thought I typed something about being too lazy to scroll up to see who it was. I'm too lazy to do that now.
I would like to say that I think we all can take a cue from your post to Mark and Richard, in the thread you created. I think these threads have had their good points, for sure. I think a lot of understanding has been gained, all around, on all sides. However, I think it's also had it's bad points. Quite a few, really. And, if we can see nothing else from the WoS "thing", we can see that the bad certainly sticks longer than the good. All sorts of things have been questioned about all sorts of people, that normally wouldn't have been, might should not have been and probably don't really matter in the big picture. The term moving target was used in the discussion most recently, and there *has* been a moving target, that has hit folks on all sides. I've been hit by it, as well as I've leveled the weapon. I guess I'm not proud of that.
There are plenty of people on this forum whom I've had opposing views with on this topic, that I've looked up to. That we all look up to. I still do and think you guys did/do some rad sh#t. I apologize to any of you I may have offended in seeking to help friends and figure this thing out. That was never my intention. I suppose we all get heated when trying to do something we believe in or trying to support the same. Isn't that what this whole thing is really all about anyway??? Support of your beliefs?
While I certainly understand all of the points on both sides, and have no clue as to where to draw the line on so many of these topics, I don't agree, at all with the vehicle used to deliver it. I guess at it's simplest point, I think we're all adults involved and shitting on people's gear, and the mob scene action and smear campaign that followed was kinda in bad taste, damned immature and doesn't really do much for the community. But I wasn't there. If I had been, I can honestly say I wouldn't have participated in it, at any level, no matter what I believed. There are just better ways to handle this sh#t. This has been my point, all along. And it's certainly not like we all don't face these types of controversies currently, in Yosemite (if you're lucky enough to live there or close, as I do), or our own home crags. There have been plenty at my home crags and I've been on the side of ethics and fought hard, so I understand that side.
But as far as Wings, honestly, it seems like really not a lot has changed. Sure, people aren't out shitting on gear, surrounding Mark and Richard again, etc... Segregation also isn't practiced anymore either, but it doesn't mean that things have really changed in areas like the South. Which, is unfortunate, as change is really another thing that this is all about. Without it, none of us would be climbing The Captain at all. Period. Most of the great routes that exist wouldn't.
Being the stweard of change, or just trying to be is a risky business. I think we've seen this over and over.
I guess, I'm saying this whole thing has certainly taken a toll. It's certainly tired me the fvck out. I've pretty much reserved to simply not post to it anymore, after this post. For a lot of reasons. I think the biggest being that anything that needs to be said has been. I guess the one reamining thing, I personally don't care about. I think it would be nice if the "shitter(s)" would contact Mark and Richard, if they feel so inclined, and have a dialogue with them, however, I personally don't need to know who it was, nor here anything from them. If they wanted to offer something up to the community one way or the other, great. But I'll be fine without it.
Anyway, it's been fun guys. Just wanted to make my peace and move on to more climbs, hopefully some great shots and future good times with you here and elsewhere, should we meet. I wish the same for you.
Cheers!
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:18am PT
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Edit-
Ok, that was needlessly harsh, I broke my 'no posting before coffee' rule, sorry.
That's all good and I can accept that.
The only outstanding issue is that you stated you heard expressed doubt a few times.
To me that means you are saying a few people are calling me a liar. Or did Pete just say it a few times?
I know Ammon well, but we have never climbed together. And I don't know him to be the kind of person to say that sort of thing.
My history with Pete is well known. I don't doubt for second he would talk shite about me. I could write a book about him, but I thought we had a truce. His opinion means as much to me as a pimple on the ass of a pig in Peoria.
So that's two people that know me that were there, one of which I have never climbed with.
I may not be fast, sure, but that is not at issue here. Speed and WoS are like peanut butter and kerosene, they don't taste great together.
I am not going to let you drop that bomb and just walk away.
This whole thing has been about accountability.
Plus I am curious who I know that is still even around?
If you don't have the sack to post it, email me.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:27am PT
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Russ,
It has been an endless source of amusement to me that people have suggested I drilled on Jolly Roger. I think this is because they couldn't believe a guy who sells insurance and climbs walls part time could climb the route without cheating. Let me assure you that I did not drill on Jolly Roger, or enhance any placements or anything like that. I climbed it in legit style, however I cheated by bringing along a free climbing gun to climb the hard free stuff! It's not a route I could have soloed.
I will confess that I placed at least two rivets for convenience to hang my portaledge. This was before it was pointed out to me that such a thing is not kosher, and I no longer do this.
Sorry, no elephant here.
John Middendorf - have you ever chiselled a head placement during a First Ascent? If so, how many and how often?
What I saw of Wings is that it isn't modified, at all, John. What I saw on the Sea is that it is modified - a lot. I don't know how many modifications were done on the first ascent, although Jim Bridwell told me in person he chipped the flake on the Illusion Chain on the FA. [I bypassed it low and to the right]
Matt - only a moron [like you] would suggest that Mark and Richard chiselled and drilled their way up a slab. All you have to do is look at the first two pitches, which you can see from the ground, to know that this is not true. Or you could take the word of me and Ammon.
Christian - Tom, not Richard, replaced the Zmacs with Zmacs. There were never rivets per se on the climb. We chose to replace like with like.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:50am PT
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But wasn't that by request? I am pretty sure I read that.
There is way too much to wade through to find the exact quote.
In an effort to bring a wider understanding of everyones opinion, I feel the Zmacs are at the heart of the matter.
I really want Richard to explain this, in the expert manner in which he explained the WoS/SoD order issue. He won that arguement with calm clear rhetoric.
I would very much like the choice of Zmacs to get the same treatment.
Also, it would be nice if Mark could address my numbered remaining issues. I am 80% of the way there.
Don't get me wrong, I am a stauch "rivet with rivets" supporter, so it is possible to win me over. I just need to hear one particular concession, or a rational reason that I have been missing. As I see it, there are rivets, or there are bolts. Both should be bomber.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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Pete writes
It has been an endless source of amusement to me that people have suggested I drilled on Jolly Roger. (snip) Let me assure you that I did not drill on Jolly Roger, or enhance any placements or anything like that. I climbed it in legit style (snip)
I will confess that I placed at least two rivets for convenience to hang my portaledge. This was before it was pointed out to me that such a thing is not kosher, and I no longer do this.
Right on Pete. Maybe you aren't amazed at how many people have told me this... of course I didn't know for sure, but I do now.
As for why I asked: Your pit bull friend Nefarious accused me of trolling with this to dilute the conversation because I'm a "fukkin assshole", and a "dumbass" or something. But... besides me being all of the above, it would be pretty hollow for a guy (you) to keep using the Jolly Roger as a reference point for hard hooking, and then applying this standard to the WoS hooking you encountered, if the facts were you drilled past the Jolly Roger hooking. That is all. I just wanted to know if you knew what you were talking about. And you do.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
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OK, I'll post again, simple to clarify something I said for someone. But, again, off the merry-go-round.
Christian, again, I said I thought I read it on here. Maybe it was more in relation to the hammering, which no one else has seen.
And, *were* it to come from someone else, especially while working on my own project related to this whole mess, I'd not "out" who it were to begin with. Just as I have not outed, even to Mark or Richard, exactly who the shitter is, and who the person (SAR member at the time) is that told me. I will say that it *does* go along with what Werner said; it's not anyone I've ever heard mentioned here, and if he was, it's real obscure and searching for any kind of info on him has really not yielded much of anything at all. Involved in a couple of FA's, nothing major. He's not only not been a member of the SAR team for quite a while, he's not been doing anything climbing related for a while, apparently.
And, for the record, As well as I know Pete, I don't know the story or haven't heard a story in regards to bad blood between you or any reasoning for there to be such. So, obviously, there's probably nothing to it, or he has, in fact, respected this "truce" you speak of. And I guess, so as an omission doesn't seem like some confirmation, in all time I've known Ammon he's never mentioned you.
Cheers!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 12:56pm PT
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And since I am here...
I think it interesting that with all the talk about the ethics of the day, ethics in general, etc. and how, supposedly, no one is being held to a higher standard, that here, on this site, there is a photo of one of the "perps" using a stick clip or cheat stick while on lead. I kinda thought that was taboo, as well. It would certainly, I think remove any "right" he'd have had to be on the "shitting team of ethics".
Or is stick clipping accepted now as well?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 01:00pm PT
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C'mon Nef... you know the drill (pun intended)... names, pics etc.
I would love to see a shiiter with a stick clip. And, no, it ain't Kosher.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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Russ -- OK, so, before I go getting ahead of myself and spouting off, as I did the other day...
Would attaching stuff to the end of a hammer or using something like a trick, duct-taped, extended draw, when you're obviously not in your top steps constitute cheat sticking/stick clipping?
Just verifying what I've always been led to believe is considered such...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 01:42pm PT
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Depends™™™™ Neff.... Taking a cheat stick for use as a cheat stick is IMO bull crap unless:
you are a midget
-or-
the topo calls for it (don't like this one either, think LoveTron™™™)
As for the hammer trick or the wired stopper trick.... quasi legitimate. On the spot improvising is probably ok. Top steps??? Who uses them on a steep route?
Let's see the pic.... you are well on the way to outing a cheater and a shiitter. (hope it ain't me!) Isn't this fun!?!?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Russ -- That all sounds pretty straight forward and makes sense.
My take on the image is that the part of the route being photo'd is not particularly steep, and Mike is actually pretty far down the aiders. While the bolt/rivet looks pretty crappy, I'm not really sure what's going on here. Just seems odd to me and looks like he's got a scream aid on the end of something. What's your take?
Again, I could just be talking out my ass. But this is how it ocurred to me when I saw the photo.
Thanks for having a look, Russ.
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