Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
|
I want to top rope Southern Belle, who is with me?
If it is a personal experince with your sac on that bull
that you were riding why do you care how others climb up on that bull?
Because if that bull is beaten to sh#t people of the future will not know how big of a sac you had. : )
RESPECT THE SAC 4 EVA!
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
|
I'm basing my argument on your own (accurate) contention that you guys basically were 5.13 climbers
We have a definitional problem. What makes one a 5.13 climber? Some of the very obscure boulder problems I had wired in Berkeley in the early 1970's could well have been at that level, but there's no way I could have done any of them on sight. I haven't read Largo -- or anyone else of that era -- claiming they could climb at 5.13 without multiple tries and multiple falls on any consistent basis. Put another way, they did not purport to be 5.13 leaders of runout slab climbs.
On a slightly different note, I'm glad someone identified some climbs to consider retro-bolting, in this case several on the Bunny Slopes. For multi-pitch, poorly-protected, 5.6-ish climbs, I think we have reason to consider doing so, but we also need to consider how many other options exist in the area. Would we improve the overall climbing experience in Tuolumne Meadows by retro-bolting more easy and moderate climbs?
In one of my home areas, Squarenail, we have a grid-bolted area of generally easy climbing called the Elvis Wall. It's hard to go five feet in any direction without finding a line of bolts, and it's thus possible to accommodate a great number of fledgling sport climbing leaders at once, but otherwise, we don't need most of those lines of bolts, because we can top-rope just about anywhere there. The proliferation of bolts doesn't bother me there, though, because the ambiance of the area isn't one of great scenery in a National Park worthy setting. If we had that same grid bolting in the Meadows, it probably would bother me, because it would seem out of character with the area.
I go back to what John Gill said, though. The decision about what we do belongs to those climbing now, not those who climbed in the past. Of course, I do have a strong preference for what decision gets made.
;-)
John
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
|
Solution! Get this Wesley fella to confirm the grades, or would his 130 lb nutz be considered aid because it gives an extra point of contact on a slab?
I'm thinking dip them in a bucket of hot C4.. Locker please advise.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
|
When people put up half suicidal routes I can see why no one would do a second ascent. When you have skills to repeat a route like that, you might as well work on your own.
|
|
granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
|
I don't usually chime in on threads like this, because it's not really my thing, but this one seems to have caught the attention of some climbing luminaries who I really respect.
I think my climbing style is a bit different than a lot of the people who post here. Most importantly, I'm just a weekend warrior. I don't lead very hard (5.7-5.9, with the occasional 5.10). My goals with climbing are just to enjoy myself, see some nice views, spend time with great people. I emphatically am not out there to die, or to get badly injured, or to prove anything, even to myself. After a heady run-out, I don't really feel much sense of accomplishment, I just feel glad to be alive.
Tuolumne is a great place, but there are very few routes there that fit my style. I remember the first time I climbed on Dozier Dome, leading a .10 that didn't feel like a .10, or even a .9, because at no point did I feel like I was gonna die, or even risk a major injury. It felt fun. Which is not an experience I associate with many of the lower graded climbs in Tuolumne (the Valley is different - cracks I can protect with gear).
Tuolumne in its current state is basically a monument to the egos of climbers past. That's fine. It limits my climbing experience there, and that of many others. On the whole, that's ok - there are other places. But I have to admit, sometimes I look at an easy-looking line and wonder if it's climable, why it isn't in the Supertopo, whether it's worth digging out the Reid to end up on something that's likely the scare the dickens out of me.
There are a lot of people like me out there. I think it's inevitable that eventually, many of these easier routes will get retro-bolted. Not by people like me, but by other people with stronger egos who want the rock to conform to their viewpoint. If I were an FA'er, I think I'd want to have a say in how that happens now, while this debate still matters, while people are still listening.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
|
Instead we continually invoke past glories which every day are further in the past
This is a perceptive quote from Jan on the P,G,R vs S thread in, of course, another more general context. Might it also apply here?
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
|
Chief, every time you tie into a rope you are playing with fire, yes, but there is a difference between playing on routes that are PG and R X.
For example some of those aid lines where people nail up a flake that WILL fall off some day. Not many have desire to repeat a line like that. Maybe it would be fine on a first ascent for some, but why REPEAT a route with high objective danger? Unless it turns you on in some way. For example I am not turned on by loose rock, or run-outs, but for several reasons I would love to repeat your friend's line (Planaria) on Temple Crag.
Ice climbing comes to mind here. Mark Twight was complaining many of his lines didn't see a second ascent or were downgraded. Well no shit! When you climb a very difficult line with poor pro and high potential for injury/death you will not see many 2nd ascents. And when they DO happen, they would likely happen when ice is thicker and line is in better conditions (usually easier, even though not always).
Ron, if some lines did not inspire other climbers YET, than let them be undone for a while. When someone comes around with enough skill and desire to do the line, it will be done. At times climbs just do not light up a fire that is needed to repeat a hard climb with serious fall potential. By the way I am just theorizing here since I do not climb 5.12s or really scary stuff...
|
|
Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
|
Funny you mention Dozier Dome, granite_girl, as just last week I climbed there. While on Isostacy (an adequately, but not overbolted 5.8, imo.), I remember looking over to the left at an obvious line and wondering why there wasn't a route over there as well.
Got back to the ground, pulled out the guidebook, and realized that there actually was a route there: "Granite Garden (5.9 X), a 500-foot free solo."
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
|
Tuolumne in its current state is basically a monument to the egos of climbers past.
WTF??
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
|
"Male-bashers [along with others] like to say that insecurity lies beneath the male ego. They are right. Bu this insecurity is not a personality flaw in the occasional man. Rather, insecurity is part of being a man, an essential part of the male role in society. Manhood is never secure. It must be claimed via public actions; risky things seen and validated by other people - and it can be lost. The fact that manhood can be lost even after it has been successfully claimed means that the man has to watch out for threats , pretty much forever. Plus, he must be willing to defend himself and his honor if need be."
Roy Baumeister,
Is There Anything Good About Men
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
|
We're going by what you yourself wrote about the FA's, that the bolts were spaced to "keep the fluff off" and leaders being heckled from below to not stop to drill and keep going, which helped create the problem we now have of routes nobody wants to do.
-
That was the game amongst peers. But this was not the ONLY reason, nor was it a matter of ego. This is to vastly simplify the process. To me, and many others, the main draw of doing run out routes was the thrill and sense of mastery and the fact that you got way out of your comfort zone and there, you discovered resources you never would have imagined otherwise. You could even meet God on occasion if the run out was scary enough. Simply writing the ENTIRE game off as an ego game or some childish act to impress others, or moreover, just young men "going to war" with public displays of stupid and vain heroics, is to miss the larger current that swept us past ourselves in the process.
The result now is that, as Joe says, there are a number of routes "nobody wants to do," and the thinking of those "nobody's" is - if Joe and others are correct - that the reason these routes were run out was for vainty, ego, to impress the other guy etc. But what I am saying, and others will vouchsafe, is that the main reason people are having problems doing these routes is that they never developed the key skill - which is thriving outside of your comfort zone, with all those chains rattling and wolves snapping at your feet.
You see, ego and other people's praise was never enough motivation to get most of us to run the rope. It was the thrill and chance to meet something rare and previously unknown inside of us that drew us on. Without this calling, run out routes will look like nothing more than ego trips, and people who believe as much will never be talked out of their misconception. That always takes a direct experience. But for those who get on the run outs, they find much more than a vain highway. ]
JL
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
|
Forget it Largo, it's Chinatown,..
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
|
Tuolumne in its current state is basically a monument to the egos of climbers past.
You describe yourself as weekend warrior. Toulumne has a lifetime of well protected climbs for us weekend warriors. Beautiful granite, good weather, amazing vies. One of the best locations in the whole world. Has test-piece climbs for weekend warriors and pro climbers.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
|
...And not just Tuolumne, either..
Would you care to elaborate?
|
|
granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
|
Largo, I think you hit the nail on the head. You are absolutely right about transcending yourself, about sweeping past where you thought you could ever go on that rock. The difference is, I probably see God about 150ft lower than you do on any given run-out 5.8. So, unfortunately, a lot of those climbs that you (or others) did, that were revelatory experiences for you, are completely off-limits for me. I don’t even aspire to do them, because that’s not the way I like to climb.
To me, the continued existence of these climbs in their current state looks a lot like ego, but maybe it’s not. Maybe “museum piece” is really the more accurate description. They represent a particular time and place in the history of climbing, one that created a lot of great climbers, and that spurred the development of so much of what we younger climbers take for granted. And certainly some of the routes should never be touched, as a monument to that era. But all of them? Just because that's how they were first climbed?
|
|
patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
|
How many heads do you have Ron?
Sorry granite girl, there is to be no discussion of moderation. It is a slippery slope to permadraws, kneepads, and ecigarrettes.
And really people, can't we keep the tone a little more Serious in here?
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
|
And certainly some of the routes should never be touched, as a monument to that era. But all of them? Just because that's how they were first climbed?
Yep, all of them. (You really don't have much choice.)
Who will you appoint as the curator of the museum? Which routes become museum pieces, and which canvases get painted over? Do you have a criteria in mind?
The FA party established the route. It is now your prerogative to critique the effort, the setting, and the style. Or, you might pass on by...
Now I really don't like Dali's body of work. I'm just not prepared to appreciate his masterworks. But I'm damned well not going to repaint 'em to match my tastes! Imagine the arrogance that would take...
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
|
unfortunately, a lot of those climbs that you (or others) did, that were revelatory experiences for you, are completely off-limits for me. I don’t even aspire to do them, because that’s not the way I like to climb.
You do not need to climb a route that was challenging for Largo to be challenged, if you want. You can pick a climb that would challenge you, and give you the same goosebumps a much tougher climb would give Largo, or anyone else.
It is easy for climbers of all levels to find a challenge. But one does not need to bring a harder climb down to their level, since it will take that climb away from climbers that climb at a higher level.
I think climbs could be a way of self expression. Art work. I do not ruin art work at a museum, and I would not want to ruin someone's route. Would not want someone to ruin mine. Plenty of rock out there to climb.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
|
There is a difference between the actual FA experience and the "law" that the resulting climb must remain forever thus.
All of the eye rolling, WTFs, sac ups, and barfing will not change the fact that future climbers are not going to play by the current rules unless those rules seem reasonable. Seems to me some routes are classic test pieces. It also seems to me that a lot of climbs were botch jobs, easy solos for slab masters or whatever. I predict retrobolting will mostly occur on the easier stuff.
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
|
They're, unfortunately, not going to listen - probably the clearest indicator that what's really being addressed here is male ego and male insecurity.
Man. You are so full of it. (A f*#king bully and his name calling...)
What's being addressed here is your inadequacy, your ego, and your fear of breaking out of your comfort zone. Either blow up those tiny boysenberries, or go play somewhere else in the schoolyard.
Until you're ready to talk about specifics and particulars, you're just nattering tautologies.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!