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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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shouldn't we focus our outrage on the Jumbo resort proposal?
That's been around well before 1992, when I attended a "mountain resort design" conference up in Whistler. At the time Mr. Vance was the Planning Director for the Municipality of Whistler, then to be hired 10 years later by Mammoth when Intrawest moved into Town...and basically devastated our local economy.
During the week long conference, I came to understand that the Blackcomb, and the new portions of the Whistler Village, were largely subsidized by the B.C. Provincial Gov't, and built upon a former landfill site/clearcuts.
The socioeconomic differences between Whistler youth, and Squamish youth, are surprisingly similar to that between Mammoth/Bishop youth, BTW.
Based myself in a hospitality-based economy, I can understand how much this proposal could mean to Squamish, particularly after what I've learned later had been the decline of that logging industry, the local economic locomotive. But, my personal reaction is that certain "places" need to be earned, and not by purchase.
How would anyone feel about, say, a Glacier Point aerial tramway?
One August, I was skiing the Horstman Glacier; it was my "Endless Winter" - I'd already summit skied Mt. Hood, and from the Muir Hut on Rainier. I shared some time with some locals, who were planning a trip to The Valley soon. Imagine driving 1500 miles north, to skid 500' vert @ Blackcomb. But...that is, or was, how I would pick up leads, that would lead to work, which has allowed your correspondent to raise his family in the
Buttermilk Country of the eastside, Inyo County, California, U.S. of A.
"El Capitain," she remarked, "is their Grand Wall."
I've wondered, ever since, what they thought, when they saw The Captain for the 1st time.
This is really a 2-edged sword. My visit coincided with the opening of the Blackcomb Glacier, over the divide from Horstman - on the basis that this drainage was a de facto ski bowl already, since your could reenter the boundary below; "so, let's add a lift."
Down here in the States, proposed development of the Sherwin and San Joaquin ski area proposals took 35+ years to die at the hands of the U.S.D.A Forest Service, from whom a Special Use Permit must be acquired.
Right now, I've about $1.5M in capital improvements (for me to design and construct) delayed by 6 months, with more of the same expected. And this is just small fry.
I've always loved Squamish. I hope a mutually beneficial consensus can be reached.
And that reminds me of a potentially important case study:
I also love Moab, Utah. Some years BITD, some developers (and Chamber of Commerce types, I'd imagine) constructed 2 chairlifts just off the main drag. One, to the north and just over the Colorado River Bridge, ascended several hundreds of feet, to the top of the slickrock Mtn Biking area (for which they already impose an access fee...sort of a "cover charge").
The other is at the south end of town, at the Kane Ck Rd - this allows viewing, but not necessarily access, to the "Back of the Rocks" Wilderness Study Area (WSA means a Federal land grab and closure)
Architecturally, both are artifacts of CorTen beauty, although I've never seen a ski lift above dry sandstone, without snow beneath the line.
They are, as self oxidizing steel CorTen, also rusting in place; I've never seen them in operation to date. I think the developers failed to take into account that Mtn biking athletes happen to love the uphill climb to earn the downhill, and tend to be in very good CV fitness to boot.
My 1st view of the Back of the Rocks was from the summit of The Tombstone, Cirque of the Climbables, never mind where.
Looking down on Pritcher Cyn was a simulacra of a paradise that hopefully awaits the faith. It took a full day to top out, although it seemed like just a couple of hours.
And, on the hike out, under headlamps, some petroglyphs where shared with me, that eventually put some thought into this crystal head of mine.
"just sayin'"
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Hamish: I was in the process of responding to one of your posts, which appears to have disappeared, unless my eyesight has failed me. If I am indeed correct, I appreciate it - friendship can be a fragile thing at times, and I commend you for your action.
I suspect that you may have been contacted by one of our mutual friends who has supplied you with additional information and the matter has been resolved. You are always welcome, (along with anyone that I still consider to be a friend) to phone me collect if you have the slightest doubt about my integrity - regardless of our disagreement concerning this gondola proposal.
I will be unavailable from Friday morning until Monday afternoon. Best wishes, Hamish, and I hope that fortune smiles upon you for your moral courage.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The road to Mt. Habrich is quite gentle if it got the modern treatment and would offer stunning views of what is an amazing landscape. Your hiking and biking at $30.00 bucks per, doesn't carry the freight.
An interesting thought. The Shannon Creek Road has essentially been undriveable for 20+ years, and has gradually gotten overgrown. Every few years the lower part is OK, although even then a 4WD is needed. IIRC, we talked about this in the master planning meetings. The District wanted the road to be difficult to impossible to drive, both because the lower part passes through part of one of its watersheds, and because three young people had driven off the road and died there not long before. Also, the Ministry of Forests wanted to deactivate the roads.
There's no need to build a gondola to provide access to upper Shannon Creek basin - simply fix up the road, and maintain it.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There was decent road access to upper Shannon Creek 40+ years ago - it wouldn't be creating anything new.
It sounds like BK and I need to team up for a Nose attempt. Bruce, what are you doing in the last half of September? We could help out at the FaceLift, then totally crush or be crushed by the Big Schnozz.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Kabala Arch, i enjoyed reading your perspective as it was refreshing & think that the Squamish/Whistler to Bishop/Mammoth comparison is somewhat similar.
What would you or eastside locals think if they built a "passenger" gondola, not a ski/bike gondola but a "passenger" gondola in or near Bishop, something to say take people up over Paiute Pass or up the Whitney/Russell saddle from the portal during the better weather months when the conditions would be better for the "passengers"?
So they could look at stuff & point their cameras at it. Eat stuff.
Just a little chunk of the John Muir wilderness will have to be used but not much.
That is who this developer is targeting- "passengers", not climbers, not skiers, not bikers, not even hikers.
It appears that the developers are all for recreation within their statements but nothing has been proven by them as of yet except that they have been very clever in staying off of the radar of any groups who may be opposed. Only when all their cards are laid down should we trust their intentions, whatever they may be.
Some have mentioned how they will enjoy mountain biking & backcountry skiing up there but as of yet there has been nothing revealed by the developer that equipment will even be permitted on the "passenger" gondola. As of now it will only carry "passengers", this could still be ok for climbers i guess but..... definitely no ski or bike racks on the artists rendering! Looks like Blackcomb gondola without ski racks!
I have to say that i am not supportive of the gondola in this location at all & i hope it gets chopped by Mighty Hiker just like any bolts that would appear on top of penny lane would!
That's rad you live on Starlite Kabala Arch, a beautiful neighbourhood!
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Ilove it... some of the opposed want the road fixed up and big parking lots up top so everyone can drive on up. Ya, that will work; let's get everyone burning gas up into the back there. Sounds green enough. At least that won't lead to anyone ever getting lost back there, what with the hundred vehicles parked. That's how it goes up at Diamond Head, no one ever gets lost or requires a rescue in that area.
Just so I have this straight. Leave the wilderness alone up there, as it's for the enjoyment of all Canadians and Foriegn visitors. The only thing that makes it God's country up in the back forty is the fact you have to hike for 5 hours to get there. Fix up the road so everyone can drive up there. Get everyone burning a non-renewable resourse to get their butts up there instead of sitting on a gondola powered by a renewable, clean energy. Keep all visitors and tourists out of that area, you have to be a kick-ass hiker or a rock climber to earn your big view. But don't forget to fix that road up so a kabillion people can start driving up.
It's all making sense to me now.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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Condos up there? Seems a bit of a stretch, to say the least.
That's not far off M.H. calling a 60 foot easement a 250 foot swath.
If you ask for a road, you're asking for a parking lot. Same thing. That's why the three people died...they were trying to turn around.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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How much time, effort, and money were spent in developing the park as it currently exists?
Is the park underused?
How much money does BC spend on running the park?
What are the First Nations' positions?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Hey Bruce, i have no problem with "passengers", i've probably even been one myself at some point.
As well i am aware that my comparison to the sierra eastside is useless as are any comparisons of other similar locales, my intentions were to help others who are not currently in Squamish to consider how it would feel if something similar were proposed in their back yard. The eastside is in particular a poor comparison in retrospect because there is no way that the recreational community there would ever get behind something like this, you aren't even behind it & you live in BC!
I am just trying to expose a point that many people are looking at this gondola as some sort of new gateway to a recreational mecca which seems to be a big influence on their decision to support the development. So they could get up there and do all kinds of fun stuff! This is based on pure speculation conjured up by our own interests and fueled by rumours & promises by the developer that as of yet hold zero weight. It is not a ski lift, it is a passenger gondola- for sight seeing. In reality it & most of our opinions on here, with the exception of the few that have seemed to have read through the parks act & done some research (generally of the anti-gondola side i may add) on the subject, most everything else on this thread is personal opinion with our own personal theories thrown in so it sounds good, myself included. Some very interesting points & a good discussion overall but tangible information that has been produced on here is currently very limited.
respectfully,
Ryan
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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A Goat Ridge gondola seems physically possible. It might not take much extension from the far end of the old Shannon Creek roads to get to it, and then that road would be kept open and maintained, and perhaps open to the public part way. There could then be various trails in upper Shannon Creek, plus to Habrich, Sky Pilot, and Goat Ridge. Goat Ridge might not be quite as convenient/easily developed a site as the current proposal, but seems to have a lot of advantages. The Chief and Shannon Falls at one end, Britannia and a Goat Ridge gondola at the other end, appropriate stuff in between. Worth more than just a "brief review", I'd say.
Judging by the letters and other communications, the process needs to be amended and slowed down. There are a fair number of people who are interested in what's going on, didn't know about it, and would like their say. That speaks for itself, apart from their concerns about whether it should happen at all, or if so, the details. You'd have to ask the various governments about to who designed the process. What actually goes in inside any level of government, whether at the bureaucratic or political level, is usually a black box.
Bruce is right - follow the money. In this case, if the proposal goes ahead, all we can be sure of is a bottom station with tourist-oriented facilities and a connection to Shannon Falls, towers and a gondola, a cleared strip through at least some of the parks, and an upper station, again with tourist-oriented facilities. If things go wrong, e.g. another recession, or they run out of money, then we're left with another Brohm Ridge mess, but one that's far more visible. If things go right, there's no guarantee that the bells and whistles would be delivered, or when. But that's all details. Whether any agreement would contain binding terms about such things and be enforced is yet another matter.
Maybe the Squamish Nation would be interested in building a cultural centre and associated facilities at the gravel pit? If it included a restaurant and gift shop, and maybe an element from B.C. Parks, fine with me. If it included camping, that'd be fine too - although the darn RVs would have to turn off their generators at 9:00 PM, as it's close to the campground. It's really too bad that the Adventure Centre, perhaps with add-ons, wasn't built there. It'd have been a perfect fit.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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I do tend to think there's a little dutch desease going on with those one industry towns
Dear Bruce and Ryan-
My claim to "Squeemsh" fame was an onsight lead of Dream On, with a partner I'd trolled from a Whistler climbing shop. Although I've only climbed there a several few times, I just like knowing it's up there.
Have not read nor seen referenced literature, but "Downhill Slide" paints the modern corporate ski industry picture in technicolor.
I wouldn't know where to begin with the Mammoth Lakes economic picture, having only survived 3 real estate bubbles since 1982.
I guess a good backdrop starts with collateral land values. Let's say a major resort is located on federal land, under a use permit. After it's developed, all of the private holdings proximate enjoy inflated values, due to the resort (developed on public lands).
MMSA was founded by a visionary Dave McCoy. Dave had the 1960's foresight to purchase large land holdings both at the base, and deeper into our Village, soon after Chair 1 was erected in 1955 or so. The Village was gradually developed into subdivisions, and Dave made sure that a Gondola easement was established from the yet unannounced Warming (Swarming) Hut aka "Canyon Lodge" down several miles through the Slopes subdivision, to his land holdings in the commercial/lodge zone along Minaret/Canyon Blvds.
Fast forward to 1990 or so. I'd already known that Intrawest was a twinkle in his eye (another long story). And sure enough, they purchased the Mountain and land stakes for high nine figures. I never thought I'd see the village gondola in my natural lifetime, but it's running daily, now. Wind and weather permitting, of course.
Intrawest - Joe Hussain, I think - bulldozed all the funky ski shops and Mom and Pop's. 6 story condotels grew in their place - hundreds and hundreds of units. Which, naturally, encumbered the locals with enormous infrastructure expenses - water, sewer, storm drainage, roads...the works. And flooded that price point transient housing sector.
"A rising tide floats all boats," said Rusty Gregory, still a minority stakeholder. But he failed to mention that they could sink them as well.
...>Say! Wasn't it a Jew who sank the Titanic? "No! It was an iceberg!"
> Iceberg, Goldberg, Ruberg...they're all the same!
Sorry, majorly OT, and Off Color to boot ;0
But Real Estate speculators, of the breed always eager to profit from the hard labor of others, gainsaid the doubling of property prices (and not necessarily 'values'), before the first yard of concrete was poured, before the grass had sprouted on the new golf course.
Then, land costs doubled again.
Meantime, under land planner (Tremblant, Blackcomb, Crested Butted, et al) Eldon Beck's theorem of "Critical Mass" an instant "Village" was constructed. It had to be large enough, and at once, to be the main attraction in and of itself - in order to sell. What could have kept locals busy for a generation was constructed in 2 or 3 years, with imported design talent (who have and never shall see their work), and construction workers, who absorbed every rental in town, driving rents up 200%.
Quote from the Design Guidelines - "...the goal is to create an authentic mountain resort village which has evolved incrementally over many years..."
Now, if I were smart, I would have bought in on the ground floor, and I'd be a rich climber. I'm very intelligent - just not too bright, though. Plus, I just work here, alongside the many who hold down 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.
In 2007, the bubble burst - here,as everywhere. And many people, betrayed by their greed, found themselves on the wrong end of a very jolly ride, as land values were cut in half, leaving many upside down their mortgages. You can buy a unit at The Westin, last to be constructed, for USD$150K: 1/2 original price. Tower 3 of a quaint monster called, ironically, 80/50, has been put on hold; the 1st 2 phases only cost about $1,000/sf to build (We built in Starlite for $37/sf). Ritz Carlton cancelled their construction plans, leaving scorched earth where 50 seasonal Mountain workers once lived and partied.
The construction of the World Trade Towers bankrupted NYC by undercutting competing landlords on the rent, creating a lot of see-thru buildings in the process. As the tumbleweeds blow across the plazas and "common area amenities" of Mammoth's "North Village," the Town itself shall be entering a Chapter 9 BK itself, on the losing end of a $42M lawsuit brought against them by the well named "Mammoth Lakes Land Acquisition" trust, who sued on account of some double dealing down at our local airport.
This is now verging on more than you really wanted to know, so I'll try and keep it short. Other than the fact that I designed a Crash/Fire/Rescue - Snow Removal Equipment Maintenance Shop bld'g, in 1984, down there, I really don't give a fk. Beyond their failure to award a construction contract of a $600,000, FAA-approved 5,000 sf Terminal of my hand in 1988, only to spend $1.2M remodeling my CFR in 2009 w/o consulting me, I've no interest at all what goes on at the Airport. When my wife and I landed here in 1982 in a 9 passenger plane from SF, and didn't have $20 taxi fare into town, we just hiked over to 395, and hitch hiked in...not that I really care about the Airport that much. I mean, other than it's the most strategic link between the largest US ski area, and markets other than Southern Cali, who cares?
Let's say, for example, some guy who works in Chicago's Loop knows he can leave after work Friday, drive to O'Hare Field, and be making track off The Top Saturday morning, what might that be worth to him? Do you think he'd plunge for, say, $1.2M for an Intrawest condo within walking distance of the lifts?
(Actually, he should have moved out here in his 20's, instead of keeping his nose to the grindstone, under the mistaken belief that someday he'll be able to purchase the dream. That's neither easier, nor less expensive - just a lot more fun!)
Because > Ta Da! We've got Air Service! LAX, Burbank, John Wayne, San Diego, San Francisco, San Jose (Reno and Portland last year, too). Heavily subsidized by the local taxpayers.
Only 1 problem with this profitable arrangement for the new ownership of MMSA. The FAA would not allow commercial air traffic under the development proposed by the MLLA group, so our Town voided the contract.
$42,000,000...~~;~~
I guess this is a bit wide of the proposed Shannon Falls aerial tramway. But, since you asked...well, simply buy private land at the base area, that's all. And you'll go bust, whether they build it, or not.
This, of course, ignores the aesthetic and ethical issues I started with.
So I'll close on that note. I soon if not easily learned that an approach to Squamish is a bit more of an adventure than a Yosemite approach.
Wishing to check out a Shannon Falls friction climb, my 1st challenge, steps away from the parking lot, was a simple matter of crossing the 100' stream. I was first drawn to the downed log, a good yard in diameter. It was also at least 10 feet above the rocky stream bed, and I couldn't quite convince myself that this was on route.
After dithering around for a half hour, I decided to boulder hop across, as is normally done in the Sierra. Unlike the Sierra, however, all of the boulders were like polished basketballs. But, I made it, without falling in to the white waters.
I then remember a bit were I was force to tunnel up a half of a steeply slanting rotten log, beneath a horizontal fallen log just above my head. Then, use that log above as a bridge to cross the "cave" log below. Must have taken an hour to cover, what? 1/4 mile? My Apron partner remarked that when going for a peak across Howe Sound, it took them 8 hours to rig a stream crossing at the inlet.
I guess, socioeconomics best left to those who shall benefit the most (it's none of my business), I just like to know the B.C. I'll always remember - big, raw, country - will be there, if only for my adult children. Who knows? Maybe I'll get to climb there again myself!
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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OK, here goes again. Some of the supporters of this proposal speak of flexibility in maintaining the boundaries in Class "A" parks, largely because of potential future resource requirements. Still no dice from my viewpoint, and for a simple reason: your word is your bond. For those of us who are married, for example, try informing your spouse that you have unilaterally decided to vary the terms of your wedded union. Assuming that you are not shot dead on the spot, I imagine that you will soon be getting a letter from a divorce lawyer, and your troubles are just beginning.
Further to this, here will be the most hilarious thing that I have ever written: politicians should be the most highly respected people on the planet. I'll allow you a few moments to compose yourselves and wipe the tears of laughter from your eyes before you continue.
You SHOULD agree with me, though, regardless of your political leanings. I repeat: should. Too long have we tolerated these creeps who make promises during an election campaign and after being elected do the exact opposite of what they promised. I am sure that we can all remember the name of the cheap hustler (and convicted criminal) who promised NOT to sell B.C. Rail, nor to introduce the HST and, upon election, proceeded to do the exact opposite. His punishment? A goddamn medal (the Order of B.C.) and a high level, high profile diplomatic posting in London (England - not Ontario, unfortunately for the citizens of the United Kingdom), courtesy of fat Stevie Harper - Canada's answer to George Duuuhbya Bush, without the winning charm but the same family ties to the oil industry. Or his defence minister, who gave his handshake to David Orchard and promised not to merge the Progressive Conservatives with the Reform Party, and we all know how that turned out. Now these pricks are running the country.
No wonder so few people vote, but it's not the fault of politicians - it's OURS for allowing these people to pollute our political environment. I am an unlikely candidate for sainthood, but I don't give my word lightly, and my friends gleefully hold me accountable if I fail to do so.
So do I trust politicians when they make promises? Not a damn bit, but it enrages me that I can't - yet I still vote and do my very best to make life miserable for elected official of any political stripe when they betray my trust. It is my duty, as is it yours - a deal is a deal. Leave the boundaries alone, and let this place become a shrine where future generations can gather to witness where the people of British Columbia finally forced politicians to act with integrity in return for their salaries, which incidentally can be raised any time they feel like it. Who's going to stop them? The electorate? Pffft.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Blow into town, take over everything, Rape and pillage everything of value then, when the inevitable is on the horizon sell the hell right out of there.
Funny you should mention that! By a strange coincidence, that's exactly what Intrawest did - sold out to Starwood Capital, took the money, and ran like hell!
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Bruce, could it be thought that the Ashlu project has had a failure of process?
Isn't the issue of the process also at play with the gondola proposal?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Kabala Arch! Wow, very interesting. A lot of info there i was unaware of! I believe the Joe Hussain you mention was also conveniently the owner of the dogsled company that killed most of its dogs @ the end of the 2010 winter, at least until it was exposed & quickly covered up before he had the chance to take any responsibility. Sounds like a great guy!
Onsight of Dream on......Proud send! Maybe you have a few things to chime in on the Squamish Photo's & stories thread??
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Re the Gondola,
This is an interesting issue fraught with all manner of possibility, positive and maybe very negative.
Should we have our knickers in a self righteous twist? Maybe.
Like many others, I was vociferously opposed to the first version by another proponent suggesting a rig up Olsen Creek to the summit of the Chief. I thought it was a pretty bad idea that violated the very values for protecting the Chief with Class A designation.
Along comes a new proponent with a variation on the theme.
A best case scenario has a spectacular gondola ride giving access to the Shannon Creek basin. The old logging road would be rehabbed to build and service the gondola and be maintained for year round public access (the original road was built on the taxpayer's dime).
Habrich would become a subalpine crag and the Sky Pilot range an accessible alpine playground. Throw in some hiking trails, a bit of mountain biking and the possibility of some winter activity and we might have some meaningful and sustainable recreation based economic good news for Squamish. Add some much needed post harvest silviculture to the ravaged basin, some new age sensitive partial harvest and a wee run of river project and it could be a shining example of responsible and forward thinking integrated land use.
Worst case scenario, ugly gondola with garish and overcrowded base area, Shannon Creek road closed to public access and/or the project fails and the jungle grows back over a pathetic edifice.
I recall shrill cries of outrage over Whistler's Peak to Peak gondola and how it was going to shatter pristine viewscapes and forever diminish La La Land. Don't hear much about it now and having rode it a couple times find it hard to hate.
Re the Honorable Mighty's important questions;
1. Land should not be taken from provincial parks for private development, with rare exceptions.
Does this qualify as a rare exception.
Are there relevant precedents?
2. There is nothing in the master plan for either of the Parks that would allow such a development.
Were Blackcomb Ski Area or Whistler Heli Skiing in the Garibaldi Park Master Plan?
3. The impacts on the Parks and their users will be substantial, and greater than the developers claim. The benefits will likely be less.
How do we know this?
4. There is a superior location nearby. A gondola to Goat Ridge, a few km south, could be based either in the established tourist centre of Britannia, or perhaps off the highway a few km north of Murrin Park.
Superior for who?
5. If the project proceeds, and fails, who will clean up the mess? What financial guarantees would the developers provide?
The taxpayer will pick up the tab to subsidize the project or clean up the mess. We live in the age of private profit and public loss.
I'm in favor of the best case scenario but am not convinced the worst case won't be the result.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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What $$$ benefits do BC Parks get out of the proposal? Can BC Parks get some $$$ to pay for maintenance at nearby parks?
Who will develop and pay for the trails and bike routes suggested as possible outgrowths of the gondola project?
There appears no obligation on the part of the proponents to develop trails and winter opportumities beyond the narrow scope of their area at the top of the gondola?
Why do the proponents list 20-30 full time jobs directly related to the project in the FAQ section and 30-50 for the same jobs in the "Economic Benefits" section?
Since bikes are not factored into the plan, but rather considered a possible use, does the proposal actually stand to draw enough tourists through out an entire year to pay for itself? It's not like blue skies are the norm, and alpine views a regular feature in the area.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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RyanD- Actually his son Joey owns Outdoor Adventures aka TAG. They gave the dog business away to a non profit after the incident.
BK is right I.P.P's are currently the biggest threat to BC. Not only are the selling our rivers, but they will bankrupt BC Hydro with their contracted high rates. This is by design so that we pay the same rates as our southern neighbors. Accenture (An energy company from California) owns a large portion of BC Hydro.
Another Campbell legacy.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Actually his son Joey owns Outdoor Adventures aka TAG. They gave the dog business away to a non profit after the incident.
Thanks Mike, my bad.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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close enough. still his money i bet.
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