Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2017 - 05:08pm PT
|
Seems to me that what separates machine knowing from human knowing is the independent entity that realizes it is knowing, that observes the process of knowing, that finds satisfaction in the experience of knowing
Knowing what? Please don't leave us hanging.
Knowing that 2+2=4, or that green is a restful color?
Could it be knowing that your stomach is full and taking satisfaction in that?
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
|
WBraun, this my original comment in the fuller context:
Everything to them is a narrative. Consciousness itself is merely a narrative.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 04:02am PT
|
Lute No More
RIP Lute. Yesterday I had my Aussie dog of 15.5 yrs terminated. He was along on more than 300 new climbs since early 2002. Often he would be waiting at the summit when he could find a way up never having been there. He also trundled rocks for "herding" needs?
Just before injection the vet ask me if I want to say some words to the dog. I shook my head for "no" but proceeded to touch him. At the mere bit rate of 7 bit/seconds and the infusion of many feeling modules speech)requiring self consciousness awareness( would be a broken up group of utterances. Largo would likely attempt to talk in this situation with his one track mind but I wanted to feel as many parallel processes as I could )think feeling modules(.
MikeL says one experiences one feeling modules at a time? I say maybe or at least they swap in and out quite quickly. The advancing of them was beyond my conscious control)if such a thing even exits?(.
MikeL and Largo get this: the feelings at Lute's death were far more intense than any mere redness of red experience. Over all the cresting of feelings was quite neat. Loss -- major loss but so goes the march of life and finite automata.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 04:44am PT
|
Sorry about your dog Dingus. That is always one of the hardest things we have to do.
Has anyone here read Helen Keller's bio? I keep meaning to as I think sher must have some real insights into sensory input and the brain.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 05:06am PT
|
Dingus McGee!
Blessing and condolences!
I'll
Now retrun to read more goobldeegook
Assuieshepards are the most anthropomorphicdogs
Smart too
Just satin'
A good man's dog has left the physical continuum
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:43am PT
|
DMT: The dog knows when its dinner time. Or time to go for a ride in the back of a truck. All her favorite hunting spots, the taste of vole and rabbit. She rests in the shade of the driveway, that thousand mile dog stare as she contemplates I know not what.
Good writing and images. You’re arguing that these are indications of consciousness?
But these, too, are anthropomorphic, are they not: thousand-mile-stare, taste of vole and rabbit, favorite hunting spots, dinner time, etc.?
Ward: Everything to them is a narrative. Consciousness itself is merely a narrative.
And what you've written, too, is a narrative. Everything you wrote was a narrative.
Say something meaningful without narration.
Every explanation of consciousness is a narrative. Give us one that isn’t.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:47am PT
|
No help for me, there, yanqui.
Maybe the problem lies here:
The abilities to identify with others and to distinguish between self and other play a pivotal role in intersubjective transactions.
(from the abstract)
I see simple ideas dressed in jargon. Perhaps my inferior parietal cortex and prefrontal cortex in the right hemisphere are not playing their roles in interpersonal awareness.
The parts of the brain mentioned are far away from my alley.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:48am PT
|
Knowing what? Please don't leave us hanging.
Knowing that 2+2=4, or that green is a restful color?
Could it be knowing that your stomach is full and taking satisfaction in that?
The question isn't what you know, it's what is knowing? How is your knowing different than the knowing of your heater's thermostat or your toaster? And what is this consuming desire humans have to know and to know more?
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:00am PT
|
My kitty is endlessly curious.
Mine too. Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought him back... what is that satisfaction the product of knowing?
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:22am PT
|
DMT: She demonstrates that knowledge every day. Capice?
She / it IS.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:34am PT
|
so sorry to hear about Lute, Dingus
he was a good soul.
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:58am PT
|
No help for me
Reflect on the "for me" part in your statement and maybe you'll start to get the idea.
More added on to avoid a second post:
The abilities to identify with others and to distinguish between self and other play a pivotal role in intersubjective transactions.
You really don't think babies/chlidren go through a learning process to do this? Did you ever play "peekaboo" with a baby? In Argentina mothers sing "que linda manito" to their children which is a sort of identify my hand/identify your hand song for babies. I played lots of games like this with my kid.
(more added on) found this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Even better! This kid is only starting to get the idea:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 10:46am PT
|
A complimentary piece to the T. Metzinger Harris conversation...
Killing the Buddha...
“Kill the Buddha,” says the old koan. “Kill Buddhism,” says Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, who argues that Buddhism’s philosophy, insight, and practices would benefit more people if they were not presented as a religion.
http://www.samharris.org/media/killing-the-buddha.pdf
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 11:26am PT
|
Since you don't who Buddha really is you and Sam Harris are clueless to that fact that Buddha is impossible to be killed.
It has never ever been done nor will it ever be done, ...ever.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
|
Reflect on the "for me" part in your statement and maybe you'll start to get the idea.
Maybe. I do have 2 children. Yes, I have played peek-a-boo, sometimes with little ones on the bus.
My point is that to refer simply to "knowing" reduces a multifaceted human experience too far for me. I cannot follow. The fault may lie with me,
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
|
Thanks Ed, for the photo of Lute.
I am the occasional caretaker of my daughter's dog, who she got from a shelter in Amsterdam. The dog is a wonderful companion despite a few behaviors that evidence mistreatment and other hardship in her past.
There may be a karmic connection, too.
Sympathy for Dingus. Those are days that will not come again, but there is still a strong connection to them.
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
|
Beautiful photos, Ed. Sorry for your loss, Dingus. There are more dogs out there who need your care and love!
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
|
MH2: I thought we were talking about the human capacity for self-awareness as something that might distinguish human awareness from machine awareness (at least what's available now). Hence my example earlier about how it might make sense to say a self-driving car is "aware" of where the road goes, but I doubt it's aware that it's a machine that knows how to drive a car. It was my interpretation of what Paul said. Maybe I was mistaken about all that! Cheers.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!