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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the Tuesday NYTimes not withstanding, I don't usually think of bacteria as capable of intellectual confusion.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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So if bolts are placed while climbing instead of rapping, it would be okay but it's wrong otherwise? It seems like some people here care about their rules more than they care climbing.
I personally don't give a sh#t how a bolt is placed. I care very much why it is placed and where it is placed.
Dave
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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The reason we won't agree to "letting both coexist" is many of us believe one of them is murder.
Murder of a possible (or impossible) challenge for all of us including future generations. The submission of stretch of rock removes the possibility of personal growth while climbing for both a potential FAist and any repeaters who might gain something tangible from pushing themselves later on.
Since no one owns the rock, it's not fair for over-bolters to steal these challenges away from all of us. If you only want fun climbing outdoors, set up a toprope. Why do you need to add bolts and take something from the rest of us when you don't really even want the challenges or risk of leading?
If you can't climb it fairly now, leave it alone until you can. And if you are in desperate need of fun, risk-less lead routes, we have this thing called the climbing gym.
-Paul
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Can rap exist side by side with classical?
I guess it depends on the listeners. :-)
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Question for traddies.When this crap started,did you foresee the epidemic it is now?Did you think you'd be vying for crags with sport climbers.Did you think you'd ever see a bolted crack?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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As the original generations of rock and roll fans matured, the music became an accepted and deeply interwoven thread in popular culture. Beginning in the early 1970s, rock songs and acts began to be used in a few television commercials; within a decade this practice became widespread. Starting in the 1980s rock music was often featured in film and television program soundtracks.
Just as jazz lost its ability to offend, so did rock. While mainstream rock music was no longer able to shock or offend, new forms of music, particularly the punk scene in the late-1970s and rap and hip-hop in the late-1980s as well as some pop acts, emerged to fill this role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_effects_of_rock_and_roll
Devil's music
When asked if he was "still playing the Devil's music" Jerry Lee Lewis stated "Yes, I am. But you know it's strange, the same music that they kicked me out of school for is the same kind of music they play in their churches today. The difference is, I know I am playing for the devil and they don't."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Question for traddies.When this crap started,did you forsee the epidemic it is now?Did you think you'd be vying for crags with sport climbers.Did you think you'd ever see a bolted crack? "
Yes, as early as '75 I could see the writing on the wall clear as hell. In places like Eldo and the Gunks you could see about 40-50% of the folks leading were very nervous about it and basically less than competent and confident with gear. Many folks simply stopped leading or quit climbing altogether if they couldn't deal with placing pro.
It was a very pent-up demand for sport climbing before it even arrived. At that time the divide wasn't yet around the form of protection - it was around the stylistic divide that preceded bolting - and that centered around dogging which became the mainstay tactic of sport climbers once the bolting started in earnest.
It was always clear there was no shortage of folks who would be drilling like mad once the bolts started flying. But the overwhelming spread of sportclimbing had to wait for battery technologies to evolve and drop in price. And those advanced battery technologies are the true foundation of sport climbing. Once those drills became cheap it was quite clear what was about to follow.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Deuce...Blazing Buckets has seen at least a 3rd and a 4th. It's in a very popular spot, so it probably gets done from time to time.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Cheap batteries are the work of the devil!
Somebody once told me that we grow up to be the same as our parents.
healyje, is that true? Did your Dad hate your music, clothes, and long hair?
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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I don't understand Wes, how can you compare the possibility of man flying (without artifical wings) to the possibility of man climbing without a bolt every 5 ft? You're analogy would only hold true if man had started flying originally without machines (considering man started climbing originally without bolts).
In fact, if man could fly on his own, why would we need airplanes? The fact is man can climb without overbolting!
Look, all I'm saying is if your reasons for climbing don't include the mental challenges that go along with traditional climbing (bolts or not), why not just toprope? Why lead at all? If you just want the joy of climbing movement, what does leading have to do with it? Why do you have to insist on overbolting to the point where leading loses its purpose when you don't really even care about leading?
I think many who would argue for traditional ethics will argue that traditional leading adds value to a route with classic climbing movement. I am just not sure that overbolting adds value to anything.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Champion wrote: Look, all I'm saying is if your reasons for climbing don't include the mental challenges that go along with traditional climbing (bolts or not), why not just toprope? Why lead at all? If you just want the joy of climbing movement, what does leading have to do with it? Why do you have to insist on overbolting to the point where leading loses its purpose when you don't really even care about leading?
Safe to say you have never done a really hard sport route.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Bob: Not safe to say.
Of course you could just ask, but why not assume?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Champ wrote: Bob: Not safe to say.
Of course you could just ask, but why not assume?
Because if have done some...you wouldn't have made such a weak statement.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Better analogy Wes, but I'm not sure anyone would argue that highway driving is a sacred or amazingly fun recreational experience.
I will agree that overbolting is a relative term, and everyone has the right to climb for their own reasons. Of course, everything is relative and that has never stopped people from including terms like "reasonable" in the law. I can agree that sport climbing has its place. But I also think there are places where sport climbing does not belong.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Wes wrote:
"bob,
Everyone knows sport climbing is no more involved than a casual day of top roping in the gym. "
I completely agree:-) I like you guys more every minute.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Funny thing is, I was just reminiscing about climbing with folks of various styles. The only time I've had a climb "ruined" was by a group of trad climbers. This was right on the cusp of the sport/gym transition, so the majority of climbers were just climbers, of various abilities, or lack thereof.
It was my first attempt at the regular route on Fairview dome. I don't recall why, but we ended up making a late start, with 2-3 parties ahead of us. I didn't so much mind the slow pace of the party ahead of us at first, and was content to chill at the second belay. But when gear started winging down on us, and this seemed to further slow their pace, it made me realize if we stayed on the route, we'd likely get nailed by falling gear, and would definately be decending in the dark. Needless to say we didn't have a flashlight with us. So we bailed and went craggin.
I've been to plenty of other areas where folks were falling their way up a route bolt by bolt, but it never ruined my climb.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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wes wrote: 'The solo routes could be considered "best style," FAs as nothing was done to alter the rock at all.
Is that like "best religion" or "best tradition" or "best cultural norms?"
Are you suggesting anyone unwilling to risk their life is unworthy to climb the rock? Or simply that those who climbed it first dictate how it should be climbed in the future? '
I was not very clear in that post. On the west side of Fairview Dome in Tuolumne Meadows, natural features are very scarce so climbs are protected by bolts, for the most part. So it would seem that there isn't really any choice but to bolt. However, there are two other choices: climb the route solo, or don't climb it at all. So of the three choices, climbing the route solo is inarguably the choice of "best style" if the route is to be climbed, not climbing it is also "best style."
What surprises me in this discussion is the fact that we can choose not to do the climb, backing off, or just not going up to do it at all.
I'm not saying people should solo, that's a personal choice. When I solo I am fully prepared to back off, my life depends on that...
When putting up a new route I like to think I'm ready to back off if the line I choose won't go. Better to leave it for someone else then to force it, that someone else might even be me...
If I go up on an established climb I have to be prepared to back off too.
Now about who dictates what about climbs... we've been around this before on the Forum. In reality the climbers who climb those routes do whatever they want. I think the FA team or the FFA team does have some say in this matter. The whole concept of a "test piece climb" is based around the idea that the team had in establishing the climb, sometimes this is a very careful deliberation, and part of the act of creation. So changing the configuration of the climb after the FA (or FAA) could change the idea of the climb.
Who cares?
To some extent the ideas are important, and even compelling. The impressive thing about Smythe's essay above is that he points out the fact that climbing is really a construction that we climbers create. Climbing could be a whole lot of things, we see it on this particular thread, trad, sport, gym, etc, etc. It is a game of sorts and it has a set of rules that describes it. This doesn't trivialize it in my mind, but there are no immutable laws of climbing. So while you may not think the ideas of the past are worthy of limiting you, I find it hard to believe that you have absolutely no interest in how climbing is defined. In fact, you have been passionate about making sure that the definition of climbing not exclude what it is you do. So you care about ideas. If some later generation of climber posts on whatever the future medium communicating climbing news and opinions dismisses your perception of climbing as "archaic" and "no longer valid" I suspect it will bother you... but who knows, really, just a point of argument.
My examples in the previous post are examples of "side by side" ethics, which coexist without too much controversy. I suspect this is true because we understand the ideas which motivated the execution of the FA.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Ed,
you wrote:
"OK, I've never been on these, nor will I likely ever do anything but walk underneath and look up, but what's the prevailing opinion about these two routes at Reed's:
Crossroads 5.13a * - 1990 Ron Kauk
Phantom 5.13b - 1986 John Bachar
it would seem these two climbs might provide an example raised in Ron's OP question"
These routes, when they went in, epitomized the controversy.
Bachar employed "quickies", a sliding nut design, to extend natural protection and avoid bolting on Phantom.
Kauk's Crossroads, was a countermove of sorts. The name Crossroads itself indicated the conflict, stating that we were at a crossroads in climbing, with bolting in particular at the center of it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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And thanks Ed,
For digging up all that historical stuff which you posted up-thread; an appreciation of context is always a good thing.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Tar wrote: These routes, when they went in, epitomized the controversy.
Bachar employed "quickies", a sliding nut design, to extend natural protection and avoid bolting on Phantom.
Kauk's Crossroads, was a countermove of sorts. The name Crossroads itself indicated the conflict, stating that we were at a crossroads in climbing with bolting in particular at the center of it.
And why can't both be seen as positives for the climbing community?
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