Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 06:11am PT
|
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. I for one would be thrilled to never see a political thread in the Supertopo forum again.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 01:43pm PT
|
This new policy departs from what has been stated in the past.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/501284/my-annual-post-about-non-climbing-threads
Sure you don’t want the forum taken over by political posts, but the free wheeling nature of this forum has been a huge part of its appeal. Talking politics with fellow climbers at least gives you something in common with people of other persuasions and may open up your mind to other views. Yes these threads bring out the worst in SOME people. But there have also been some good deep philosophical discussions and I have learned a lot about how different people think. So because some people cause problems we have to throw it all out? As I posted before it was about 10% of threads (maybe up to 25% at times) and about 10% of my posts have been on political threads because I like to hear what people I know from the forum think about the latest news.
It seems abusive posts by some members are the problem not the political threads which are the minority of topics. I would have much rather Prefered a way for users to not see posters or topics they they don’t like (because it seems some people can’t simply ignore them on their own). This new policy will either cause more moderation time and/or drive long time members from the forum.
This policy of no longer allowing the freedom to post what you want and no longer allowing linked images in threads (which should be no issue) are bigger drawbacks to me than simply ignoring threads or members I don’t want to see. And I’ll be visiting the site much less often.
I wanted to give my feedback because I’ve appreciated the forum over almost 2 decades.
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:09pm PT
|
Fet, the problem that I have with them is the following, and this is just my impression of the sequence of events, I can't prove cause and effect:
Before there were a lot of political threads, people were in general decent to each other. Yes there was some back and forth but not so much constant nastiness and name-calling.
Sometime in the Obama presidency, the number of political threads started to increase more dramatically, and people started to get really nasty to other people they disagreed with. I almost never clicked on the political threads but I became aware of the nastiness because it started LEACHING INTO EVERY OTHER THREAD. I'd be reading a total non-political thread and people would make nasty comments to another forum poster, based on their developed hatred of them from a political thread.
As this nasty tone escalated throughout the Forum, a lot of low volume but semi-regular posters (I'm in that category) gradually left the Forum, because what was once a pretty fun and entertaining place, had just stopped being entertaining.
I still visit here because there are some threads that I enjoy and some people still posting who are real gems, but I personally think the political threads did huge damage.
Take care, Phyl
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:18pm PT
|
Recently I started a positive polithread on Mayor Pete, trying to keep it polite and upbeat. And most posters complied, but a couple of negative bashes (not against Pete) appeared. Then it was locked.
Avatars have made the internet landscape unpleasant.
edit: I realize the thread ran afoul of the new policy, so was locked. My feelings weren't hurt.
|
|
Ay Aye
climber
...some assembly may be required
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:41pm PT
|
Saving the planet, stopping totalitarianism, helping a lost robot...was nothing sacred?
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 03:55pm PT
|
jogill, I suspect your thread was locked more as a matter of renewed policy enforcement efforts, and less to do with the actual tone of what was discussed there. Everyone could have remained perfect sweetness and light, and because the thread was overtly political, it got the lock.
Chris isn't going to budge on this, so it is what it is.
I'll reiterate, though, just because I want to: setting aside the negativity those threads tended to be associated with, given the wide range of topics that show up here constantly that have nothing directly to do with climbing, it seems quite odd to single out politics as the sole issue to carve out. If the rationale is based on the pattern of negativity associated with those threads, I get that. It seems to me that giving a firm axe to those who were the regular sources of it (myself included, at times) would achieve the intended effect much more effectively.
|
|
A Essex
climber
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 04:48pm PT
|
do ya'll even 4/20?
sheesh
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
|
Trump is a moron. Hillary sucks. But the dems won't see the light, and the conservatives will let the planet go to sh#t calling every bad decision they ever make "god's divine will".
Hundreds and thousands of politard posts here distilled into one simple sentence .....
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 07:39pm PT
|
Avatars have made the internet landscape unpleasant.
I think that's a big part of the problem, John, but not the entire problem. I largely started to ignore the political threads (on which I made an excessive number of posts) after the 2016 election, because the nature of acceptable political rhetoric changed dramatically, both on the internet and in general.
Until then, I was able to engage in worthwhile discussions, minus the noise so accurately distilled in the two posts above. I actually learned some things that changed my mind from the political discussions on ST. Once the signal-to-noise ratio increased beyond my tolerance, I didn't need a change in ST policy to stay away from pointless rants.
And I should add that the ST policies and actions toward overtly political threads have changed, despite representations to the contrary. To me, at least, disapproval differs from prohibition and removal.
Phyl, I would second what the Fet said, above, about the attraction of the freewheeling nature of this forum. I think you've seen the reaction of some of the ST regulars on my Facebook post, about how much they missed that "campfire." It wasn't just the aggressive ones. People who, to my knowledge, never posted (and never wanted to post) an offensive comment were some of the most outspoken against the current situation.
Ironically, the change has caused me to post more in the last few days than I have in the past two years, because I greatly value the people I got to know here, even before I met them in person. I hope we'll stay true to the climbing atmosphere with which I grew up -- one that valued individuality and freedom so greatly.
John
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 09:58pm PT
|
Thanks Phyl. I agree with a lot of what you wrote.
But for example I have also appreciated the discussions I’ve had with John E. An extremely respectful member that I’ve learned a lot from who has made me see the other side of some issues. I missed his input after 2016. But I totally understand why he would refrain. Things have gotten worse in some aspects. There are a number of new totally ananymous accounts that only (or mostly) post to political threads. Are they are some of the most nasty.
I just feel there must be some solution that doesn’t require moderator input or restrictions on the forum that allows members to tailor the forum to their liking. But perhaps since the forum is provided as a community service it’s not worth the time or expense to figure that out.
|
|
Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 10:19pm PT
|
Yeah well Werner, distilling you down to the nut reveals 'You're all stupid'.
Edited to add: I sure hope that wasn't 'political' comment. Otherwise it would be deleted.
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Apr 20, 2019 - 11:20pm PT
|
John, that's one of the things I appreciate most about you: unbridled idealism. You've long espoused the idea that 'the cure for bad free speech is more free speech', as it relates to politics, and presumably, the dynamics in ST political threads.
I understand the principle, but I'm at a loss as to how it could have worked here in these ST political threads. No matter how respectful the dialogue might have been amongst some, there was always a few (or a lot) that just poured on the shitsauce with no restraint, whatsoever. I really can't blame Chris for seeing only one way to deal with that negativity: axe it all, every bit of it.
|
|
Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 06:12am PT
|
The Administration's have done a good job of purging the worst actors. The discourse has been pretty tame considered the subject matter and certainly doesn't come close to the threats an errant bolt can generate.
If I were a guessing person, I'd believe that there are just a few members who can't stand the political leanings here and continually work behind the scenes to blow the whole political thing up.
The proof lies in the multiple threads that are not climbing related that do have heated back and forth, although in a more gentrified manner.
Let the political threads go- the more we covet a forest the more a pyromaniac wants to set it ablaze.
|
|
Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 07:26am PT
|
One good thing, the Russian trolls are gone.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 09:58am PT
|
I'm not able to resist, but I promise: this is the last one. This thread is a political discussion dressed as political instruction...
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 10:03am PT
|
"Where There's No You"
Reina del Cid
Published on Apr 21, 2019
https://youtu.be/1YHR7FWI7Go
Lyrics:
I’m going to get some air
and I don’t need a train to take me there
I’m going where the water’s blue
I’m going where there’s no you
I’m walking through a canyon range
these legs can take me miles and miles
away from your sweet face
Appalachia and the Rockies too
I’m going where there’s no you
Where there’s no you
Hello to the Great Divide
Hello to Caroline
Won’t stop till the borderline
California, here I come
I’m heading to the Garden State
wanna take the whole Atlantic in my arms and float away
I am swimming where the birds sing a different tune
I’m going where there’s no you
Where there’s no you
Hello to Mammoth Cave
Hello to the Everglades
Bring on the better days
Arkansas, how do you do?
And are you lonely too?
My darling, how’d I get this far?
See I’m halfway around the world
and I’m still wondering where you are
Well I can’t see what there is to do
so I keep going where there’s no you
where there’s no you
where there’s no you
I’m getting nowhere
and that’s the truth
‘cause I keep going
where there’s no you
|
|
Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 11:01am PT
|
I would be glad to see them go as well. One reason I stopped visiting often is because there really weren't that many climbing posts or they were just hard to find.
|
|
capseeboy
Social climber
wandering star
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 11:02am PT
|
Even with algorithms, FB has huge problems with hate threads couched in code speak/memes/connotations that algorithms do not detect.
I suspect some threads on ST to be trolls. I've read the best thing to do is ignore them, as any response, pro or con, gives their jollies a stroke.
Personally, I find it difficult not to express an opinion, even though I acknowledge that it is actions, not words, that change things.
Sincerely sorry for the grief to the ST business model; however, in today's world environment of the net, your being naive if you think your not going to be abused by the public at large.
Good luck.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 09:26pm PT
|
I understand the principle, but I'm at a loss as to how it could have worked here in these ST political threads. No matter how respectful the dialogue might have been amongst some, there was always a few (or a lot) that just poured on the shitsauce with no restraint, whatsoever. I really can't blame Chris for seeing only one way to deal with that negativity: axe it all, every bit of it.
Eliminate the avatars. I have seen this work on site after site, where the offensiveness had gotten out of hand. People usually dramatically change what they say, when their actual name is associated with the words. There are crazies, but they are few, and easily spotted.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2019 - 10:09pm PT
|
Eliminate the avatars. I have seen this work on site after site, where the offensiveness had gotten out of hand. People usually dramatically change what they say, when their actual name is associated with the words. There are crazies, but they are few, and easily spotted.
While I agree, Ken, that this would help (as I responded to John Gill, above), my experience on Facebook makes me skeptical of solving the problem. I've seen some offensively hateful political posts on Facebook by people giving their real names. The current political situation seems to make people feel justified in engaging in intellectual holy wars, trying to show their purity to those on their own side, rather than engaging in reasoned debate with their opponents.
Apogee, I greatly appreciate your comments and, of course, the discussions we've had over the years. While I believe the thrust of the First Amendment is that the cure for bad speech is more speech, I don't see ST content as a First Amendment issue. This is a private site, and has the right to take those actions that its owners think will optimize its value. It just saddens me to see their apparent judgment that the users of this site need someone to get rid of bad threads. I would rather be among adults who can make that decision for themselves, but the comments I've read over the years make me think that CMac, et al., accurately reflect the overwhelming feeling of ST users.
John
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!