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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 16, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Kevin,
> Sure, it could be done on lead, but extremely challenging to do the cleanest way, that is by pulling the original bolts with the minimum amount of scarring, and drilling out the original hole for stainless. The idea of plugged holes next to new bolts bothers me a whole lot more than you guys rapping.
Good point. I didn't intend to encourage folks to jump up there on lead to rebolt, unless they were going to replace bolts in the original holes. I.e. like how Greg described You Asked For It was rebolted.
> Also I have no problem with two bolt belays top to bottom if you're into it, otherwise we can pinbolt the belays that used pins. I'm open to input on how others feel about that detail.
I'm certainly into making (3) and (1) into 2 bolt belays. If you (and Ron) prefer, though, we could place a single bolt at (3) if it looks like pinbolts would work well there. Same at (1) - replace the current single bolt; leave just that if it looks like a pinbolt would work there. My recollection is a bit faint, but I recall the pins at (3) stick out quite a ways, and may not be in a flush corner that would be required for a pinbolt. We'll see soon enough. Probably it would be simplest to just have 2 bolts anchors at (3) and (1). That way you and Steve could concentrate on the protection pins, as needed.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 17, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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Karl Baba, the "in a nutshell" ethic that I posted was in force when most of the routes on Middle were established and is pure old school, bolts to a minimum. It was commonplace among climbers to morally weigh and judge every bolt by asking the simple question "could someone else do this without drilling here?" Each and every climber determines for themselves the relevance of this question. If you don't even ponder bolting from this elevated standard, then the value of a bold and well crafted line may be elusive and misinterpreted with respect to motivation. From my perspective the trial by fire involved in creating a masterpiece like Space Babble on the part of Kevin and Ron makes it an inspiration to climb superbly at ones limit and hence a gift of rare and imcomparable value to me and others with a love of adventure. If you don't need or seek out such inspiration how can you really value or cherish it?
Duncan, great to hear that you love and care about the fate of SB too! Thanks for the warning about the stainless steel piton problems. Stainless steel tends to be more flexible than tempered cromoly and depending on fabriction and material thickness more prone to twist shearing with or without sea water thrown into the mix. One advantage of the pinbolt concept is that the throughbolt should stabilize flex and bending under load. The 3/16" type 304 angle that I am planning on using is stout and has been stiffened somewhat during fabrication. The angle configuration is far more rigid than a field bent eye as well. Any information on the failing piton designs? I have lots of testing and meddling left to do to say the least! How many fixed pins do you recall on the first pitch when you did it?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 17, 2006 - 06:04pm PT
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Steve
I don't have a problem with the ethic you posted except that you used the present tense and seemed to imply all routes should go up like that. If that's not the case then no problem.
Since you are saying that the FA should ask "Is there somebody else who could do this without drilling" then the answer is often yes. Unfortunately, that would leave the vast majority of climbers with only death routes at the moderate grades. That's why I believe better protected routes put up by public service minded climbers can and should coexist with bold routes put up by top climbers.
First Ascent types tend to be committed climbers who can virtually solo 5.9 and run-out 5.10. That's not representative of the folks at the crags these days. You can't live in Camp 4 any longer.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 17, 2006 - 06:48pm PT
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Karl says: "You can't live in Camp 4 any longer."
Only dead people there now?
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 17, 2006 - 06:50pm PT
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Karl's inferring that the old ways are dead. I say pffft!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 18, 2006 - 12:41am PT
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Olt Ways Dead?
Scurrilous Rot Indeed!
Why, just this wee-kend I partook in the ways of olt tymes pass'd...
...With a minor adjustment to accomodate the duple rope technique.
And with swain footwear proudly minted some 40 years agoo:
No lie: Ground Up We Sail'd, On Syte and Daisy Fresh;
Alas, one well placed cherry bomb would've rendered the crag level as tha sea:
Not Dead Yet!
(talk amongst yerselfs, regrupe I say and carry on...)
(the prior communique in no way expresses any unjust or lowly feelings for the Babble,
...nor towards its reconstruction, not on my part, for trew.)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 18, 2006 - 02:11am PT
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"Karl's inferring that the old ways are dead. I say pffft!"
Karl said
"First Ascent types tend to be committed climbers who can virtually solo 5.9 and run-out 5.10. That's not representative of the folks at the crags these days. You can't live in Camp 4 any longer. "
What I'm saying is that there are far few climbers living in the valley and focusing on valley climbing than there used to be, partly because it's harder to stay here long term without being SAR. Back when ya'll were putting up routes on Middle, it not only was a much smaller scene but the scene consisted of a higher percentage of committed climbers. 5.9 and 5.10 were respectable grades if climbed boldly. There was more of a reason to "get into" these bold face climbs as they were new territory and there was a group energy focusing on them. We loved to go to the Apron and there was people all over the place.
No longer. Climbing is a much bigger scene and the folks climbing 5.9 and easy 5.10 are mostly weekend warriors. The Apron is a ghost town, as is the Middle Apron and Arches Apron. Most Bolts are not replaced in most of these routes despite being moderately rated routes in "climbing central" What does that tell you?
Just that times have changed. If there are few remaining 5.9 and 5.10 good lines in Tuolumne, I don't want anyone telling me that they "should" be soloed or done X-rated by 5.13 climbers because "they can and it's good style" It's one thing to save these old classic routes but another to lay the fundamentalist ethic over the future as well.
I do think the little guy should have something to climb without quiting his job and risking his life.
Peace
karl
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:12pm PT
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Arrrrrr! I'd sooner ascend your gradmamas arse than that rock again.
Good from afar yet far from good.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Dec 18, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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Arrgh, sounds the same as his grandmama's ass then.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Dec 18, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
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Duncan...Nice to see you here in Supertopoland! I'd love to see you add some of your British 'visitor's' perspectives to the assorted pissing matches and strolls down memory lane here.
Melissa (who tagged along w/ you to Stannage Edge when I was in England for work a few years back.)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 20, 2006 - 10:01pm PT
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Duncan, glad to hear that you love Space Babble and care about its fate. I couldn't glean much information from the postings about piton shape or material. Stainless steel in sheet form can be fairly flexible material and pitons formed by bending would seem prone to twist shearing with or without seawater thrown into the mix. The pinbolts that I have in mind are cut from formed 2" x 2" x 3/16" type 304 angle which has some mildly forged character and seems beefy enough. Any info on the actual failed pins themselves would be greatly appreciated. Is the climbing scene where you are suffering from a lack of modern day mettle or has boldness kept its place in youthful minds and imaginations?
Karl, you sound like you have had your share of wild times, why would you wish anything different on the future? People are going to do as they please to be sure when the new route bug bites them. There are dozens of piles being sportbolted in the name of good clean fun every weekend by the top down folks. If somebody wants to get really wild up there and put up a runout route because they feel that old school mojo rising and flowing, that has roots far deeper into adventure and alpinism than any silly sport climb or otherwise sanitized clipping experience.
The lack of oral history and information on old school routes and climbing style has everything to do with parties deciding not to check it out. Bad anchors thrown in and you have little to no popularity. The scene is not the way it was nor is the average climber these days as experience hardened or ambitious. In thirty-six years, climbing has changed dramatically from my perspective and I seek to inspire other climbers to take an approach that has historically yielded the fullest and most rewarding experience. Quality of experience versus mere moves tips the balance well in favor of adventure climbing so that is what I advocate. But it's not everyone's thing baby!
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 21, 2006 - 02:18am PT
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Karl, I find myself agreeing with all of your posts. I do think that some of which you have written has been misinterpreted by others. Most of what is being discussed in this thread boils down to personal preference, and how it varies among us all. Take any face climb with fixed gear, there will be those who think it is perfect as is, others will have preferred something different. Unfortunately, every climb can only have fixed gear set up exactly one way at any point in time. If there was just some way to clone each climb in different dimensions of time and space, so that every climber’s preference could be met at all times! I am in complete agreement that the overwhelming majority of climbers have no interest in leading rad runouts. I include myself in that majority. In fact, I hate runouts, I wish they did not exist. I do not enjoy true danger, simply the illusion of it. To me runouts are a necessary evil to be avoided whenever possible. It is clear, however, that there are those that love runouts. And I do not consider myself to be a “little guy”, I absolutely love climbing and have been devoted to it for nearly 30 years. I know climbers, and have read the posts from climbers, who find true danger in climbing to have strong appeal. In fact, I am convinced that some climbers find true danger to be the strongest draw to climbing, something that really turns them on. And I have no issue with that whatsoever, just pointing out that for me and many others this is not what draws us to climbing. I am not advocating adding bolts to routes like Space Babble, since I believe that routes like this done in impeccable style are so impressive that they should be preserved; it would not be fair to those who enjoy this type of rad climbing to ruin every route like this for them. The mega rad honemasters deserve this. But if it was only me and those with my tastes for climbing in the world, then Space Babble would need and get substantially more fixed gear! And it would be most unfair to the majority of climbers if all routes were "R" or "X", because we would be forced to risk injury or death or simply not climb. Karl, again I so agree with your point about aprons of incredible rock in Yosemite (and elsewhere) that virtually never get climbed because the routes are so dangerous. Again, the routes there are so impressive in the style in which they were done, but at the same time it is such a shame that they are essentially being wasted. Perhaps a consensus among us as to if a route never gets climbed, perhaps a change in gear is reasonable? Big name routes like the Bachar-Yerian, and likely Space Babble after being fixed up, are sought out by at least some by top climbers. But lesser known routes in similar runout states likely never get climbed at all.
So what is “silly”? Sport climbs, or life-risking runouts? I think neither. They are just different; I suspect the average person would consider all climbing to be silly. Everyone has a risk line they are not willing to cross. What turns one climber one turns off another. Most prefer safer climbs, while at the same time being impressed and respectful of those who prefer more radness and danger. What is a quality experience for one is not necessarily a quality experience for another. Enjoy!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2006 - 04:10am PT
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We like to talk about principles and ideas but what really happens is a mix of factors that changes with time, fashion and personalities.
What we do and say has an effect on how the future plays out but all extremes tend to lead to pendulum swings.
It is what it is cause that's what it is.
Time will tell. Best way to preserve Space Babble is put some attention to fixing what's broken. Then let's see some folks have at it. Maybe that will lead to something.
Having broken unused routes leads to nothing and that will be used as an excuse by future generations tempted to reclaim unused stone.
So let's have it and see if it catches on
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2006 - 04:20am PT
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Steve wrote
"Karl, you sound like you have had your share of wild times, why would you wish anything different on the future? People are going to do as they please to be sure when the new route bug bites them. There are dozens of piles being sportbolted in the name of good clean fun every weekend by the top down folks. If somebody wants to get really wild up there and put up a runout route because they feel that old school mojo rising and flowing, that has roots far deeper into adventure and alpinism than any silly sport climb or otherwise sanitized clipping experience."
Steve I don't think it was to be extremes between Space Babble madness (10c 20 feet out and 150 feet of no pro 5.9) and sport bolting. Theres a middle ground and I think there's room (hopefully) for everyone. Some rad routes, Some sport routes, and something inbetween. I just don't agree with a manifesto that says always ground up and bold as possible because that is a recipe for elitism. I'd like to be more generous than that.
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:03am PT
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Karl, because of the risks and demands involved, putting up routes in the old days was decidedly an elitist activity with most people content to repeat climbs once they were known entities with respect to grade and committment level. What exactly do you mean when you use that phrase in the context of boldness and creative excellence? My personal style and standards are not dictatorial or the rule. I am far more concerned with poorly planned and excessive bolting at the moment than with the past ripping off the present. My voice is only one of many but I try to take the long view.
To pass judgement on a route as "broken and unused" is to begin to walk down the path of sanitation whether you are willing to own that intent or not. "Better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs." Raising your own game has always been the response to "I can't do this route today." Do you consider YC, DR, RR and TF to be elitist? If so, where does the list end for you? The tag is overused and if all you need to do to earn it is to climb boldly and well, then elitists lead and steer the parade as they always have.
Sanitation crews are not necessarily in everybody's best interest especially if the goal is to accomodate people like Hummjob that want risk and adventure gone, if they had their way as stated. The dialog needs to start from the old school perspective because that view has integrity and does not become debased by idiosyncratic whining and shortcomings. Of course there is room for all flavors and styles and for discussion on the nature of the value, worth and future of our shared resource.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:12am PT
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Hey, Steve,
"...old school perspective because that view has integrity and does not become debased by idiosyncratic whining and shortcomings."
I don't like that you just cut me out like that. I take my idiosyncratic whining and shortcomings seriously.
Buzz
PS: I am not always sure that subsequent ascents are easier than first ascents. For a climber with the skill and drive to do a first ascent, especially one that is bolt protected, it is easier to follow one's own path and place bolts where they seem to be needed than to follow someone else's path. Space Babble is an excellent example of this. It is much easier to create a new route than face badly placed bolts and very long runouts.
Roger
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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Steve,
The thread has gone on and on about the different issues and no point in rehashing at this point. I'm not talking about changing past routes, only that I suspect the future will choose to do so if they aren't valued or maintained.
And I also call for a mix of routes being put up these days. My definition of an elitist is anyone who says 5.9 SHOULD always be R or X rated because a stilled climber can put up routes at that grade without pro consistently. That's all
Many times in this thread "one side" seems to think everything "the other" types is advocating the extreme, sanitation or death runout. This is not the case. I am on everyones and no-ones side.
It's not about me. I care about the average joe, I care about you. I look for win-win situations
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
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Roger, absolutely no interest in disenfranchising your personality. LOL Gripes and muttering are essential existential tools in my world, but hardly a reliable compass.
I agree that repeats can be very engaging especially on shabby fixed pro! The focus that goes into onsight climbing on a first ascent may not be there next time around.
Karl, we are on the same page with respect to valuing the past. I take a firm stance for the sake of clarity but respect the nuances of this discussion. I climb very boldly as a matter of style and still view bolts as a last resort. I do not, however, consider my new routes in a static or frozen fashion. I am open to additional fixed protection on many of the routes that I have established, but I am going to fight tooth and nail against having that decision made for me or without, respectfully, my involvement. I have had beautiful and boltless routes sanitized by mistake because of the perspective difficulties of others. Few things are sadder in my climbing experience.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Dec 21, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
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Since the routes Swiss Orange Chip and Alien were mentioned, I should add some history since my friends put those routes up.
These guys were good face climbers, but they weren't looking to create any death routes. They used hooks to place a number of the bolts, trying to stop and drill wherever they could.
Bruce
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Dec 21, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
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Bruce, I have done Aliens and except for one section on the first pitch getting out of the scoop it seemed safe enough. Swiss Orange Chip on the other hand is not quite safe and requires some pretty serious commitment to get on. I only know of one party that has done it in the 30 years I have been climbing in the meadows. I am sure there have been others just none in the crowds I hang out with. Of course I don't know many people that have done Aliens either. Aliens is one hell of a great route and Swiss Orange Chip looks great but a little too serious for me.
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