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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Louis
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Nov 23, 2006 - 09:48am PT
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Great posts Warbler.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nov 23, 2006 - 10:17am PT
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Mimi...you act like bolts have never been placed on established routes. For a good start...go look at EL-Cap. Aid or free routes!!!!
It's been happening since I started climbing (35 years ago).
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Nov 23, 2006 - 11:36am PT
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Solo it,anything else is a compromise.Not this generation or the next but the future of climbing is its past(soloing). Those kids will think we were RX pussies.rg
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 23, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
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No sense of history at all.
The history of rock climbing is hilarious. Fist fights over rap bolting? You old guys took this sh#t way too seriously.
Maybe if you could stop patting each other on the back for long enough, you'd notice that the rest of the world isn't particularly impressed by your "ascents". In the wider scheme of things, this stuff doesn't matter.
To some poor souls, what was once inspiring has become oppressive.
No, not oppressive, just a joke. Many of you guys were blinded by religious fervor---unthinking allegience to the nonsensical "ground up" dogma.
It's funny.
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 23, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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To dismiss adventure or disrespect it is to misunderstand climbing.
Climbing for adventure is fine---if you wish to do so, that's your prerogative. But if you think adventure is an essential part of climbing, then you don't understand climbing.
The game is different now: adventure is optional. Many prefer to focus on movement.
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Nov 23, 2006 - 12:57pm PT
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What gym y'all climb in down there in Austin?
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
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Frac: Clearly, the movement you describe with such fervor and delight is no more than a bowel movement. Your attitude is a joke and you give sportclimbing a bad name. Considering how rich the past is, if you're the future, things are looking rather dismal.
Bob, yes it's happened before but why support it? Why not stick your neck out here and take a stand. You've said how much you don't care, but I don't believe that. Specifically, are you in favor of adding bolts to the DNB? Yes or no? Have you ever chopped someone else's bolt? And if so, why?
Happy Thanksgiving!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
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Hey?
Who you callin a punkass?
Hahahaha, Happy thanksgiving Kevin & Mimi
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Wade Icey
Social climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
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Mimi sez "Isn't the character of a route directly related to the amount of risk one faces on said route? "
wade sez "Isn't the character of a route directly related to the amount of character possesed by the first ascensionist?"
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Mimi
climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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Wade, we're on the same page. There's more to a route than bolt count. The big looming question is whether a particular route is worth climbing.
I am of the opinion that bolts are usually placed by an FA where appropriate. If it's too run out for a given climber, they need to get better or find another route to do. The onus is on personal improvement or another goal. Like I wrote earlier, why does this have to be so oppressive? I am still shocked that these younger climbers have such lowly goals and aspirations. Might be due to a lack of inspiration based on a lack of historical knowledge. The mantle of history is a splendid thing, why not try it on rather than flippantly tossing it aside?
The road to accomplishment in climbing has never been easy, but it's always been straightforward; set goals and work toward them.
Happy Turkey Day, Werner and Merry! Hope it's a nice quiet day with lots of good food.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Nov 23, 2006 - 02:45pm PT
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Mimi..no, I have never chopped someone else bolts.
I have never chopped bolts that have been added to my FA's (trad or sport).
I have "stuck my neck out there"...I climbed 5.12 pre-1980 and also have done numerous big walls free and have run-it-out on r and x rated routes.
These were all personal choices. At one time (many years ago) I thought I knew how and why other should climb!
I changed my way of thinking!
This is a tired and worn-out dicussion...I been hearing it since I started climbing.
I have always respected the FA party efforts...so no...I don't approve of adding bolts to established routes.
This THREAD has some how drifted from the orginal post.
What happened to ground up climbing....it still out there and I still do it.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 23, 2006 - 03:18pm PT
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Hedge- That was a good, clear, coherent non-insulting post. Although I disagree with your conclusion, I can see how you arrived at it. I personally was always happy that the B-Y existed, as a climb to really challenge me in an inward direction, if I ever decided to make the trip to the meadows to try it. It never occurred to me to hold John's greater skill against him when he established the climb, as something to excuse myself from having to build up my own abilities to be equal to the challenge. I doubt whether John was purposely making the climb extra run-out when he put it up on the lead - he probably stopped where he could to place the bolts. My vote, if somehow we could hold a referendum on the subject that included the whole climbing community, would be to leave it as it is.
Further to your point, I did do a number of runout routes that were pretty close to my limits, back when I was climbing. I can assure you that the idea of fame or one-upsmanship did not enter my mind on those climbs. It was simply a type of climbing experience that occasionally I enjoyed, and which gave deep internal rewards. I never placed a bolt from hooks, and never made unnecessary runouts. I also feel the routes were generally well-crafted. If they weren't, I never objected to the problem being fixed by another climber. This especially applied to those old 1/4" bolts we used to put our trust in.
I want to be clear that I'm not disparaging good sport routes established by necessity from the top down on crackless, overhanging rock. Although I never got into that kind of new-routing, I clipped a few and recognized their brilliance (in the case of those that were brilliant). In fact a little sport climbing training helped me to realize a dream to do a big wall free climb in the Himalaya, on Nameless Tower with Catherine Destivelle.
I would like to ask you respectfully to consider leaving the R and X-rated climbs alone. As an enticement, I will invite you (and your compadres like Wes, etc) to northern Utah, where I serve as director of a small non-profit group called Ogden Climbing Parks. We are working to work trails and access issues out in advance of openning up a number of basically untouched climbing areas, both trad and sport (limestone). The mayor of Ogden has agreed to supply drilling and bolting gear for the sport climbing crags (mostly limestone). The first of these areas will probably be openned next spring. Interested? Bob D, you can cme, too!
I'm off to eat...Happy Thanksgiving!
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Nov 23, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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Exactly Warbler, it's the best because it's the B-Y route.Why, because the scary ones are always the best.I ask myself "do you feel lucky today"???? If you haven't drilled into rock you will never understand why & where bolts are placed.rg
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 23, 2006 - 03:46pm PT
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Fracture- Obviously you don't think adventure is an essential part of climbing. I never said I thought it was, only that climbing's history is rooted in it. If you don't see that, your climbing experience is severely limited.
Well, of course the history is rooted in it. That isn't something to "see" or not, it's a simple fact.
But the game is different now. (And much improved.)
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fracture
Sport climber
Austin, TX
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Nov 23, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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People who have been climbing for a month in gyms claim to climb hugely better than me.
I hate to be the one to break it to you: they do.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Nov 23, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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I climbed some of Bob D's stuff last weekend at Penetinte canyon & still think it was put up in good style.Those guys siege bolted that area for 5yrs & it's almost the same style from one end of the canyon to the other.I'm glad they did it before some rock gym yahoo screwed it up.Most cracks were done free solo & left boltless.rg
I think we have been Trolled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 23, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
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Author:
fracture
Sport climber
From: Austin, TX A ground up ascent where the FA deliberately sacrifices the ability to optimally design the route for future climbers is an ascent in very poor style.
If you would rather do silly Evel Knievel style stunts than climb, that's fine. But if you produce a f*#ked up route while doing it, you're kidding yourself if you really expect future climbers to leave it alone. Sorry."""
You guys realize that you are wasting your time with a gutless punk-wank cluesless gym climber c#m sporto moron from rc.com, right?
LOL. Suma C#m Laude. Just checking to see if it really thinks C#m is a bad word. Latin for with, not very seuxal after all, I must say.
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Duke
Social climber
PSP
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Nov 23, 2006 - 04:42pm PT
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This thread is way runout.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 23, 2006 - 05:13pm PT
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Easy question.
Anyone who can do the route as it was originally done has the "right" to do so.
Nobody puts a gun to your head and forces you to climb anything.
whatever happend to doing a route when you wre ready, as oppsed to dragging a route down to some suitable level?
And again, Do your own routes however you want.
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Wade Icey
Social climber
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Nov 23, 2006 - 05:24pm PT
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Hey Joe, Happy Tday. Hope you're well.
Jack may have taken the BY away from we mortals but he left a whole bunch of stone to left and right. The Hedge/Icey awaits.
No shortage of occasions to rise to, Eh?
cheers
Wade
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