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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Healyje, i was serious, I used to love Blitz when I lived in Eugene. Drank the stuff every chance I got. Delicious.
King Cobra these days. LOVE beer...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"so what were you saying there? were you saying that if you can modify a route in a way that is not visually apparent, then no harm, no foul? because now you are saying that you did "enhance" somewhere between "several" annd "many" hook placements, and that you did it w/ a very sharp drill bit, acting as a chisel."
So Matt, rather than just repeating yourself, how about simply saying either a) the apron shouldn't have been climbed and still shouldn't or b) that you or anyone else then or now could have climbed it differently or in any better style. If you mean "a" you're no doubt entitled to that opinion, if your mean "b" then I'd have to call complete bullsh#t (to quote mimi)...
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"We'll never know now because two boneheads did the first ascent in such poor style that a another party was robbed of the opportunity to do it in much better style. No doubt about that."
Well, see, being that I have been on the route, I'd beg to differ. I think Pete will agree, I think Ammon will agree too. I also think Slater would have, as well as anyone else who got off their ass and went and had a look. If you feel you, or someone else that's out climbing, has been cheated out of an ascent of the slabs, then you're mistaken.
Those same hook placements are all over the slab. The slab is big. The slab isn't going anywhere, and I doubt *anyone* has balls big enough, in light of the last 24 years, to have another go at a new route there, to begin with. Regardless, using the hook placements they did, the possibilities are endless on that slab, and probably most other slabs. Cheated? Surely not. Sounds more like a cop out to me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"That's really the point isn't it? We'll never know now because two boneheads did the first ascent in such poor style that a another party was robbed of the opportunity to do it in much better style. No doubt about that."
Actually there is doubt aplenty, according to Pete and Ammon's report from at least a couple of pitches this statement is a complete bald face lie - no doubt about that.
"Then or now, or in the future, climbers should respect the stone (and other climbers) and not beat the rock down to their level."
Then or now, I've read - zero - that gives any indication you or anyone else could do a significantly different or better job of it then the FA's did. So, unless you consider Ammon clueless or less than impartial I'd have to conclude they showed more respect for the rock than some folks from your own tribe over the years.
[Edit: You obviously have some beef with the "(and other climbers)" aspect of the whole saga, but clearly their climbing was in fact either top-notch or as good as anyone of you could have done or do on the same line.]
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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In my opinion LEB is a troll, a figment of someones imagination. And if she is real, she clearly stated that she does not climb. Her panel idea should be tossed into the internet sea to feed the trolls. I do not belive that a troll or a non-climber whose only exposure to climbing (except ST) can have much of value on the subject.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Cop out? What about ignoring what the FA party wrote about the route and what's in the record regarding chiseling/drilling? How can you assume that anyone else going up there would do the same thing?
It's great Ammon went up there to check it out, but I'd be surprised if he would say that it couldn't be done without chiseling/excessive drilling.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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here is another MSmith post from oct. 30 2005 (which JM was refering to earlier (i have quoted nearly the whole post, to ensure context):
note- bold text added by me.
deuce4 – “In aid, of course, it has always been an occasional technique to break off a loose flake or something to make a placement, but think about it en masse, and you may be coming closer to the questions people were raising at the time.”
It seems like part of the complaint is the ‘quantity’ of modifications. I totally agree that it is a legit concern, and well expressed. I can’t recall the figure, but Wings of Steel has somewhere around 150 hooks. At least 10% of these saw modification. I feel safe to say that less that 20% did. That would come to about 20 -25 over the climb. (Richard, if that doesn’t jive with your recollection, feel free to jump in.) So I don’t know if that falls into the category of “occasional” which, as you acknowledge, is standard Yosemite ethics, or whether if qualifies as “en mass.” I could have described our number of modifications as “several,” but to me “several” means 3-5, maybe 3-10. So I used the word “many.” The only reason Wings of Steel could work as a climb is its less than vertical nature. On an overhanging wall you need a pit to make things go. On the Great Slab a flat surface is reliable. The number of micro-ledges and flakes on the Slab with flat tops usually left us with the problem of figuring out which one was best, not where to find one at all. Moreover, most of the flakes on the Slab are too small to be banging into as they are smaller than the diameter of the drill itself! If Jeff wants to count every modification as a hole, then consider the climb to have 165-170 holes.
“there's a big difference in the experience if you have a drill and/or chisel by your side and are willing to enhance to your level.”
It seems we are back an argument of ‘quality’ of enhancement. As I think should be clear from my post that kicked off this debate, we didn’t modify flakes “to [our] level.” If a flake was otherwise usable but had an obstruction at the back, we chipped the obstruction to get a flat spot big enough to take the tip of a Leeper Narrow (which as you know has a tip of almost no size). We didn’t say, “Gee, while I’m here, I think I’ll just bring this puppy down to my comfort level.”
One point I’ll throw in, although I realize this deviates from the topic. Regarding hook modifications, we could have said it never happened and sold the story. But we have attempted to be honest and transparent, offering both supporting points to our climb and points that are open to criticism so that those following this thread can form a judgment based on the entire truth. Our forthrightness should be worth something.
i agree, the forthrightness is worth something, but 10-20% of 150 hook placements is 15-30 "enhancements" (i still don't like that word), not 8-10.
i am more inclined to believe you when you make a wider estimate (a range of 15 rather than a range of 2), because you ar not going to really remember the # itself unless you keep a record, and it seems you didn't do that because you thought of it as no big deal, especially if it was not visually apparent or obvious that you had chiseled.
by that statement alone, i am calling this a manufactured route.
i mean, come on, you chiseled up to 30 placements-
unless you were underestimating? even slightly?
if i can still read, the # is now already down to 10, so...
was the drill out in every hard section, or wasn't it?
you said you had a 30% failure rate for hook placements, if you chiseled a placement and it blew, and you had to start over, does that chiseled placement that just blew count toward your total? (30% of 150 is another 45 placements, how many of those were chiseled? didn't you say that the "modifications" made failure more likely?)
do you expect future ascents to follow in your exact hook placements? how? you said yourself they cannot be seen, right? so you chiseled to make it go, and even then you whipped off left and right, but the 2nd, if there ever is a 2nd, either 1)doesn't get that advantage (though it can probably be made up for in additional less-than-clean slab falls), or2)gets to chisel his way up el cap.
now you have a middle aged insurance salesman just a year or two over a pair broken ankles (courtesey of el cap), trying your route on TR, and a speed guy who gets bored climbing by braile on the rig (go figure).
did you offer either one of these guys your drill bit beta?
seriously, did you suggest that they could fall less frequently if they would consider employing the same techniques that were used on the FA?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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I'm not saying anyone else up there would or wouldn't chisel, or anything else, mimi.
I'm simply stating that the slab is *huge* and blank. Essentially, it is the same from one end to the other. If someone really wanted to prove this point about any of these questions, they could simply move down the line 20 feet and get the exact same experience. Remember, it's a featureless slab. 1800 feet later, you'd be at the headwall. Essentially the same experience. That's all I was saying.
No one's been cheated out of the opportunity of anything except climbing a line in the *exact* same space as WoS. There's plenty of slab to offer the exact same experience, however.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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from above:
Wings of Steel has somewhere around 150 hooks. At least 10% of these saw modification. I feel safe to say that less that 20% did.
and
it's a featureless slab. 1800 feet later, you'd be at the headwall
so how do you get up 1800 feet of hard hooking w/ 150 hook placements?
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Without a doubt, Mimi is the most entertaining thing to happen to this thread in a while.
It almost makes up for LEB's appearance.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Matt, you keep saying it again and again in more words than Richard - why not simply come out and say it? You don't consider WOS a valid line. Ignore this and write all you want - but in the end all those repeated words all simply boil down to: "quality", "quantity", and "manufactured". And, again, that leaves no other conclusion other than you think a) it isn't a valid line (in which case no line up the apron would be) or b) you think someone else could do it better. It's quite amazing you and others can't speak simply and plainly and say one or the other.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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h- i guess i don't know if a or b are true, but i think there is room to argue either, using just the info in their own posts, and i don't think there is any reason to entirely vindicate these guys or the specifics of their ascent, all these years later. maybe your point is that i am spending way to much time on this thread, and you are probably right (bye then).
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Actually, the slab isn't the same all the way across. Water flows heavier in some spots.
Mimi, you are rad! I agree with every word you have written.
What I saw on WoS was that someone had beaten the rock with a hammer. I don't pretend to know who did it, but it looks to me that someone was trying to erase placements. This was 6 or 7 years ago, I don't keep those kinds of records.
I got to the third anchor by the original start with no falls, and I clearly credit the Petzl crochet hooks I got in france for making it that far. And yes I threw up.
Jensen, you continue to push too hard. You gain ground and then go and insult Deucy, once again sending you to the talus.
What was the rational for replacing the rivets with Z-Macs? That is the ultimate epitome of manufactured difficulty. Your as bad as Beyer setting up somebody to die.
Anything you did right is offset by that atrocity.
And for the record, if there is a rivet between anchors, it ain't A5. Your putting in purposely bad rivets still doesn't make it A5.
Do you still not get it?
It is clear to me you wanted to put up an A5 route. That's not how it goes. You pick a line and climb it, and rate what you find.
More later, gotta go
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Matt, my final take on it:
a) It's a largely uniform slab.
b) No one's getting up it without "enhancements" of some sort.
c) Every ascent is likely to be essentially an "FA" in terms of non-repeatable hooking.
d) They did as good a job as anyone is likely to.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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um, ^^that^^ guy got up 3 pitches w/ no falls, did he just get lucky and find all their doctored placements? did he have better hooks?
if they chipped up to 20% of their hook placements, that sounds like all the really bad ones to me (there musta been some good ones, right?). you might as well bolt on some plastic holds, at least we could all see where the route goes.
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WBraun
climber
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I have absolutely nothing against you Mark & Richard nor against your route the Wings of Steel and you did a great job climbing it in whatever style it was.
But to me and to me only, it's a piece of sh#t. I wouldn't want to do it.
Can't I even have that opinion for myself?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Some say the WoS guys fell to the talus...No, the thread did. Mark and Richard, the biggest mistake you could make now is believing everything you read on the internet.
How about this, everyone except those that have climbed the route are talking out their ass. So much BS strewn across the web. The difference is whether you are condemning the WoS guys without adequate knowledge, or you give them the benefit of the doubt and some respect for being willing to put up a bold climb. And by anyones account, it is a bold climb.
In other words, to the crowd who thinks they raped the stone. Climb the route and prove that they did.
Climbing IS still an action sport. Talk is cheap. If I were Mark and Richard this is the challenge I would have laid down years ago.
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WBraun
climber
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If "Talk is cheap"
Then why even Talk?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Werner -- I'm sure Mark and Richard will appreciate and accept that. I think it's totally valid that anyone have their own opinion about it.
elcapfool -- Here's the thing, concerning your claims. First, I've heard expressed doubt, a few times, about your claims of getting up that far on the route. To me, neither here nor there. I could care less, but always try to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say they've done something.
However, here it could be valid, as you say you got up three pitches, and also say you saw all this evidence of someone hammering all over the rock. So, not to offend, but the people who saw and are "supporting" also feel the need to verify the "detractors", as the lines seem to have been drawn.
So, first, you surely waited an *awful* long time to claim this (hammering). It certainly didn't appear in the initial threads. Why hasn't anyone else seen this hammering? Maybe both Ammon and Pete missed it? Maybe Tom missed it, or I did? Are you saying the hammering is above pitch 2 only? What are we missing?
As far as the A5 crap above... Someone said that if it were A5 the belays would pull (too lazy to scroll up now to see who). Apparently aid ratings are moving targets too, when talking about WoS?!?! Check your ratings - that would be A6.
As far as the rivet/A5/Christian did it thing... Aid ratings are based on danger. From the JM/JL book: "A5 always refers to a string of placements so marginal, it takes not only God, but all the angels and saints to keep them in place. If one placement goes, they all go and physical harm is almost assured. You may hit a ledge or swing into a corner."
Well, from what is known of this summer, by several folks, this kinda sounds like Wings. This says nothing about pulling anchors (which would be A6), nothing about the length of the pitch, or runout, yadda, yadda, yadda... I think a string of desperate hooks, run out 30 feet or so, above a ledge that you *will* hit if you fall, which *will* break something, at the least, which desribes the crux 2nd pitch of WoS, sounds pretty similar. Again, the ratings are based on danger.
So, I guess what I'm wondering is that when you've got it on pretty good word from a couple of guys, who would know, that the climbing is very hard, one of them, who could be classed, rightfully, as some sort of "superstar" climber is taking multiple falls and *neither* of them saw any eveidence of any "hammering", which is confirmed by other people who have been on the first 2 pitches in the last couple of months.... How do you account for this?
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