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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 12, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
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My god Hedge, are you still arguing this one. Your one stubborn dude.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
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respecting first ascentionists is fine, but ownership? no. it is not their route. nor did they "create it", unless they chipped it. nature created it, through wind, water and other factors. we climbers walk up and see the line that nature gave us, we experience what nature has to offer and some styles respect that nature and others less so. we climbers for those few moments (at least on shorter climbs)experience what nature gave us. we did not create it anymore than man created the earth. it is those moments on the sharp end that matter the most. not what someone chooses to do with the rock later. we can never control that, and we dont own it(unless you own a cliff on your property.
respect for oneself, the environment and the accomplishments of others is what is important. not an unwritten law.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 12, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
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What's the name of the 2-bolt x-rated 10b at the Needles that got retro-bolted, then the FA guy went back and accidentally chopped his own bolt and made it worse than it was before, so that now the first bolt is above, not below, the crux?
Always thought that was pretty funny
By the way, that's one of the best granite 10b's anywhere, it's a travesty that it's a death route - and yes, put up by a 5.13 climber
If you are referring to Phosphorescent Flow, you are clueless to the actual events, as sad as they were.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
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And I'm saying that not every FA was for every person, either. Some of them shouldn't have been done in the style they're currently in, and being insisted on being left as.
Fair enough?
Hardly fair enough. You are dictating how a route should have been done, and you were never there. Never there. Unless you were at the sharp end, questioning every aspect of the unknown, you have no right--nor any obligation--to have a say in what transpired. Believe me, every route a Stonemaster established was near the limit of their ability, their creativity, and stands for the moment. They own the experience. You may partake of it as you wish. Or you can gnash your teeth, and bemoan your limitations, and decry the callousness of those who dangle their skills in the written book which is their route.
That stands. It is a testament to their craft. Your choice... Do or not do. Believe me, they didn't create that route for your sake. It wasn't created for you. It exists. It was done without rehearsal, without prior inspection, without the knowledge that it was possible.
You, the follower, have the satisfaction of knowing that there is a bolt, that the route can be done, and that there is a path to follow. Take comfort in knowing that another human has passed this way.
How dare you to decide whether the style meets your "approval"! There it is. As it is.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 12, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
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"Cracko, the debate is about entitlement."
Yes Ron, and I'm entitled to express myself regardless of how "off-topic" I am.
Cracko
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Todd Townsend
Social climber
Bishop, CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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As a relative ST youngster, at age 37, it has been a real treat to hear some of the elders chime in on their thoughts and feelings regarding the methods, attitudes, and traditions that led to the creation of the routes that we all enjoy today. I'm curious to know what people think of routes that were established free solo, and thus lock away lines without any protection whatsoever. Since there's been a request to name names, I'm talking about routes like Solitary Confinement 5.9X, Walk of Life 5.9X, Blue Moon 5.8X, and Silverado 5.6X, all on Fairview, Walkman 5.6X at the Bunny Slopes, and Pearl Harbor 5.6X at Daff Dome.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Flank of the Big Horns
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:35am PT
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Seems simple Todd, either do them or don't, just don't bring the challenge down to a lesser level by altering the route.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:38am PT
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5.6x? Cool that someone went out and had an undoubtedly great time. But locking it in forever that way is silly, at least given current climber pressure in TM.
I think there is a lack of distinction between test pieces and meaninglessness slabs that would be fun for many climbers.
I just think the sac up line in the sand will eventually lead to awful retro bolting of run out classics when everyone is dead or doesn't care and that some thoughtful reconsideration of easier random routes that really were run out on purpose or just soloed might relieve some of that pressure.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 13, 2013 - 02:26am PT
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Why not just leave em alone? It's not like there's any shortage of routes or any any shortage of unclimbed stone. Not everything needs to fit ADA standards.
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Loomis
climber
Svět
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Sep 13, 2013 - 02:56am PT
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Kris, I stand corrected, please tell us about the Needles incident.(In a PM, if you wish)
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allapah
climber
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Sep 13, 2013 - 04:24am PT
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You have all been trolled, and masterfully
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 13, 2013 - 07:17am PT
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Like it or not in the rock climbing world in most areas the FA owns the route. In most cases this is a good thing but in some cases obviously it it is pretty darn sad.
If the climb is all natural gear then it is not such a big deal but once you put drill to stone you are makeing decisions that other folks will have to live with for good or bad for a very long time.
For my own peace of mind I take the responsibility of bolting a rt very seriously. If it is a GU effort I will go back after the FA and make whatever changes are nessicary to create the best route possible. If it is a top down route I will put a lot of thought and effort into getting it right before I sign off on it. I have a few 30m top down rts that took 6 days of effort to get just right so that I was satisfyed that the final result is a masterpiece. In many ways it is a lot like a work of art.
there are several prolific rt developers in the area who are proud to boast that they could give a rats ass what anyone else experiences on their routes and that they put the rt up for themselfs. like it or leave it. These same guys are also the most adament that they own the route. I was told by one of them that" i never once thought of how anyone else would experience one of my routs" yet this same guy would raise holy hell if someone tried to fix one of his mistakes. That is some selfish ass clildish sh#t INMOP.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Like it or not in the rock climbing world in most areas the FA owns the route.
actually, the only thing the FA owns is the first experience. sorry, you don't own public rock.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 13, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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I just think the sac up line in the sand will eventually lead to awful retro bolting of run out classics when everyone is dead or doesn't care and that some thoughtful reconsideration of easier random routes that really were run out on purpose or just soloed might relieve some of that pressure.
A call for rational, holistic thinking for the future of the community?!
Heresey! Here on ST we MUST have dualistic, black and white arguments that belittle the pussified, sac-less opponent.
They shall cower before us and their women shall worship us as gods!
Nay, there shall be no middle-ground knave! Brandish thy sword, I will have satisfaction!
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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Sep 13, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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"I got really good at down climbing the impossible too. Self preservation is a powerful motivator of higher learning. "
Well Ron, a lot of folks don't like that kind of responsibility these days. It is like folks approach climbing as they do court sports. That is what sport climbing is for.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Sep 13, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
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The problem is American climbers want it both ways. One, using a hammer on a route is o.k., and two, I get to dictate how everyone else uses their hammers.
Everyone likes to slag on euro bolting but the truth is that's the only place run out, no bolt, death route, knot protected paradises exist. I doubt there are retrobolting threads about the grit on ukclimbing.com.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 13, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
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JL "Fact is, I don't know one of the old school run out guys who gave a rat's ass what others thought about their climbing."
JL "Back when I was about 18, I remember complaining to Bridwell and Klemens that it looked like Twilight Zone was basically unprotectable with Hexes and they asked why that was their problem. If I lacked the sac to do the route, where did I get off complaining about it?"
all this talk about beans and sausages has me confused.
you didn't care what Jim thought about you climbing?
But you cared if he thought you had a big sac?
or he cared if you had a big sac?
or he suggested you grow some sacs?
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What you are not realizing here is it is you who are adopting the persopective theat we cared about what the other guy thought, and drew motivation from this, when in fact that is how you see it, and are building your arguments around a kind of dipshit codependency that simply was not there IME.
In reality, this issue about sac, and Twilight Zone, and who cared about what, played out just like this (not in the drama you have constructed in your brainpan).
I complained that TZ looked like it couldn't be protected (circa 1973) with old Hexes and Bridwell asked me why that was his problem. IOWs, he didn't care what I thought about TZ, and my issues were really between TZ and my very own self.
I went on to climb TZ with sh#t pro not because I cared about what Bridwell thought, but because I wanted to climb TZ. That is, the reason to grow sac was not to impress others, but to be able to do these routes in the classic style, without having to change the rules owing to selfish demands I feel I am entitled to impose on an R or X route.
You are confused about this because you are limitd to your own understanding and beliefs - that the old runout routes were done as a kind of chest thumping exercise. Quite naturally you think this because you never had the experiences of being out there on the sharp end on any of these scary FAs. Out there, so far about the pro, a big name counted for nothing, and what others thought good or bad couldn't help you one bit. Others didn't even exist at that moment in time. It was all about you and the rock.
Because you apparently never had those experinces, all mention of sac would seem to you to be a kind of rooster posturing done for others. In fact the exact opposite was true. Sac was mustered for the route. It didn't count for a hell of a lot with all the other guys because they all had it too.
Now along comes those lacking said sac and they declare it was summoned as a gym class kind of childish macho wankalong. And how very silly and puerile - and what gets lost here is that they are the ones whimpering about the run out, not the doods who ran the cord in the first place, who now are being disparaged as macho snobs, once out to impress the crowd that was never there at the time.
This is all as wonky as Joe's argument that the old runouts were invalid because they were so far below our technical limit. But as Robs pointed out, there were many times when what we were on-sighting was pushing the envelope on what we could do when we COULD NOT FALL. Now we hear that we who did those routs were frauds and pretenders out to impress others. Given what actually happened, that totally amazes me. It's not so much that I care what others now think about it but rather what is being described here is not historically accurate.
JL
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 13, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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This was mentioned several times up thread, but we were really trying to work with what the Rock gave us. In order to do that, you had to take calculated risks and push yourself out of your comfort zone. This was the focus at the time of the climb, not "wow, someone will think I was pretty bitchn' back then".
There was a lot of mutual respect among climbers of all levels, and that led to a lot our routes not getting subsequent ascents until the next person was ready for the challenge.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 13, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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"Fact is, I don't know one of the old school run out guys who gave a rat's ass what others thought about their climbing."
Sorry, Johnny, but it's disingenuous to suggest that we were indifferent to the attitudes of our peers. At least, in my opinion. I just can't think of anyone that didn't compete for prestige and acknowledged prowess. Case in point: the pleasure of the "sand bag." Some did go so far as to "sneak a peek" or pre-work a pitch, but that was something about which one never bragged. In the era of Tricky Dick, there were a few Nixonian Watergates. Right?
However, at the sharp end of the rope I also know of no one who intentionally or purposely ran it out just for bragging rights. On steep face--leading from the ground up, without prior inspection--protection was vitally important, but so too was the need to conserve strength for the unknowns yet to come.
This whole thread may be an elaborate troll, but the issue is real and recurring. Placing additional bolts on existing routes is chickensh#t, clear and simple.
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